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Anne, I do not know just how much to believe and that is why I am trying to prove/disprove whatever.

On Thomas marriage certificate 1855 on previous page it says that both Allan Mark and his wife Isabell are deceased.

On Helens marriage certificate it does NOT say that Adam Mark is deceased but that his wife Mary nee Phillips is.

On Janes marriage certificate 1862 to James Reid her age is 23yrs making year of birth 1839 which connects to the census both in Scotland and in Utah.


I dont want to give any untrue info and that is why I try to check on it.

Some of the info has bits that are correct but a lot more is sort of twisted around the truth but have found that before with many Lds info.

Hi Moody Blue,
I wonder where the birth dates for Jane and Mary Mark came from?
These births are not on SP ( anywhere Scotland). I would have expected that the OPRs would be transcribed.
All of the trees have Carnwath as their place of birth, yet all the other family births on family search show that the children were baptized in Shotts.
It is possible that the bapt entries for Shotts state place of birth was Carnwath, but without looking at it, we cannot be sure?


I wonder if the girls provided their dobs after they arrived in Utah for LDS records.

I have come across these Archibalds in Utah before, but I deleted every one of them from my tree a long time ago
I decided that my tree should only contain direct line descendants of common ancestors.

If I recall, they linked somewhere to OH's family who originate in Inveresk, Midlothian.

EDIT:
Most ANC trees have the same 1854 death date for Adam Mark b 1819.
There is no death on SP taken from any OPR
If this was a definitive death date, then it would refer to another Adam Mark as the one b1819 was still living at 1871.
A few trees have the 1854 death added to both Adam b 1819 AND his grandfather Adam b 1770

I'm off now but be back tomorrow or later today.....another late night!!

DO NOT accept this info as entirely correct....more confirmation is required.


Jane Mark / Reid / Archibald ??




1880 United States Federal Census about Jane Archibald
Name: Jane Archibald
Age: 41
Birth Year: abt 1839
Birthplace: Scotland
Home in 1880: Clarkston, Cache, Utah
Race: White
Gender: Female
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: James Archibald
Father's Birthplace: Scotland
Mother's Birthplace: Scotland
Neighbors: View others on page
Occupation: Keeping House
Cannot read/write:

Blind:

Deaf and dumb:

Otherwise disabled:

Idiotic or insane:

View image
Household Members:
Name Age
James Archibald 44
Jane Archibald 41
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>William Reel 17 (Reed ? )
May Archibald 12
Alexander Archibald 10
Margaret Archibald 7
Robert J. Archibald 4
Mary Archibald 44
Thomas M. Archibald 22
Isabella Archibald 20
James Archibald 18
Allen Archibald 16
William W. Archibald 12
Mary E. Archibald 10

I get it now.....The penny has finally dropped.

Walter and George Scott were brothers. Both were sons of John Scott and Agnes Robb.
Which means... they married sisters!

Walter married Isabella Mark. Dau of Adam Mark and Mary Phillip
George married Helen Mark daughter of Adam Mark and Mary Philip
Here is John and Agnes Scott in 1841

1841 Scotland Census
about John Scott
Name: John Scott
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1813
Gender: Male
Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland

Civil parish: Carluke
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Stewart St
Occupation: Iron M
Parish Number: 629
Household Members: Name Age
John Scott 28
Agness Scott 25
Jane Scott 6
Agness Scott 4
Marion Scott 2

1861
Sisters Agnes and Rachael Scott
Both children are entered as Agnes's daughters
1861 Scotland Census
about Agnes Scott
Name: Agnes Scott
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Larkhall, Lanark
Registration Number: 629
Registration district: Carluke
Civil parish: Carluke
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Stewart Street
Occupation: Seamstress
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 63
Line: 25
Roll: CSSCT1861_93
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Scott 23
Rachael Scott 16
Janet Brown 4
Agnes Grierson 2




Anne

Helen Scott nee Mark 1881


1881 Scotland Census about Helen Scott
Name: Helen Scott
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : George Scott
Gender: Female
Where born: Whitburn, Linlithgow
Registration Number: 673/2
Registration district: Fauldhouse
Civil parish: Whitburn
County: West Lothian
Address: 174 East Benhar
Occupation: Oversman'S Wife
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 136
Line: 10
Roll: cssct1881_274
Household Members:
Name Age
George Scott 33
Helen Scott 32
Agnes Scott 11
Isabella Scott 9
Helen Scott 7
John Scott 5
Adam Scott 2
John Hurness 15
Philip Clark 4
Christina Clark 1

Hi ,
Just catching up...
The 1841 cenus in Tollcross, Shettleston
Yes, this is definitely Adam Mark and Mary Philips
The married just ahead of the 1841 census.
Which is why.... Adam does not appear with his parents on the 1841 return.

The info is somewhere on this thread but I am also having probs finding it all again.

Good find on the marriages for Jane and Helen Mark.
I am pretty certain that Jane was the daughter of Allan Mark ( not William) and there will be an error on the 1863 marriage

Next step is to find them.... and see what their kids are called!

Anne

Lets throw another one in then!!

marriage Helen Mark & George Scott June 3rd 1867 Wishaw


George Scott bachelor, coalminer, age 21, Newarkhill in the parish of Bothwell
father JOHN SCOTT coalminer
mother:- AGNES SCOTT M.S. ROBB deceased

Helen Mark X witnessed by Hugh Gaffney & Adam Mark
Spinster, age 18, Newarkhill in the parish of Bothwell
father :- ADAM MARK coalminer
mother:- MARY MARK m.s. philps deceased (Phillips????)

Witnesses :- Adam Mark & James Mark

...................................................................


John Scott b1812c is the father of Walter Scott father of JohnScott b1865


probable wrongly transcribed in the mothers name.......


1851 Scotland Census about John Scott

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Name: John Scott
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Relationship: Head
>>>>>>>Spouse's Name: Agnes Robb
Gender: Male
Where born: Dalserf, Lanark
Parish Number: 629
Civil parish: Carluke
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 15 Dyke Row
Occupation: Ironstone Miner
ED: 11
Page: 34 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 102
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1851_150
Household Members:
Name Age
John Scott 39
Agnes Robb 37
Jane Robb 16
Agnes Robb 14
Marion Robb 12
>>>>>>>>>>Walter Robb 10 (Walter Scott)
Rachel Robb 7
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>George Robb 4 ( George Scott)

Hi Eringobragh1916


Yes, I would think so. He was born 1819 so age fits, he married Mary Phillips so I would tend to believe it is.

How are you.....you're not alone...I'm confused too!

This one is a little odd????

marriage 31 December 1862 at Marshall Street Wishaw after banns according to the Established Church of Scotland

James Reid, bachelor, coalminer, age 22, Marshall Street Wishaw
father :_ William Reid Journeyman Baker
mother :_ Agnes Reid m.s. Greirson deceased.

Jane Mark, Domestic Servant, Spinster age 23 , Marshall Street Wishaw
father :- WILLIAM MARK, coalminer, deceased
mother :- ISABELLA MARK m.s. BROWN deceased

witnesses :- Hugh Gardiner & HELEN MARK

registered January 20th 1863 at Wishaw.


This does put in question as to whom really were her parents and possibly Helens????

Evening MoodyBlue...

Is this do you think Adam son of Allan and Isabelle and his ? wife Mary Phillips
Address: Tollcross
Shettleston


1841 Census
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born
MARK Adam M 20 Coal Miner Lanarkshire
MARK Mary F 20 Lanarkshire



Totally bamboozled....!!

marriage for Thomas Mark july 6th 1855

Thomas Mark age 24 Wishaw, Coal mine, bachelor
born & registered at benham Shotts lanarkshire 16 Feb 1831
father Allan Mark decd coal miner
mother Isabella Mark m.s. Brown decd.

Janet Denham X witness James Mark , David Craig age 23 , Wishaw, Domestic servant, Spinster.
born & registered NewartHill, Holytown Lanarkshire 13 apr 1832
father Alexr Denham decd coal miner
mother Janet Denham m.s. Thomson decd

witnesses James Mark & David Craig



note both parents of Thomas are deceased by 1855

have replied to you Anne via pm.

Mary Mark maiden Name Phillips
Died in Calderhead, Lanarkshire in 1863

Anne & Moody Blue,

Thank you both for these latest updates, I will deal with them tomorrow as I am going to call it a day as I have been punching this keyboard since 04:00am this morning.

Thanks for Bernad's war records, looks like he was as much of a reprobate as his brother Joseph.

Goodnight All

James

Re this tree on Anc it does say Allen's father was in fact Adam Mark 1770 =1854 and his wife was Elizabeth Cherry 1770 - ?

James,
Re names
Scottish families tended to adhere to the traditional naming pattern.
Names were not chosen, but allocated in a specific order
If a child died, it was usual for the next child of the same gender to be allocated the name.....
(the name relates to ancestry. It is not given memory of the previously deceased child),
1st son.. named for father's father
2nd son named for mother's father
3rd son named for his own father

1st daughter... named for mother's mother
2nd daughter named for father's mother
3rd daughter... named for her own mother


By looking at the children and grandchildren of Allan Mark and Isabella Brown, and the order that they were named, it is starting to produce a pattern that suggests that Allan Mark's father was called ADAM MARK


Anne

Hi james,
I have been trying to work at all the children born to Allan Mark and Isobel Brown.
Allan and Isobel married on 21 Jan 1816
There are only 6 children listed on Family search all born Shotts

ISOBEL Mark b 20 Dec 1816
According to a tree on Ancestry that needs to be confirmed, she married Michael Hendry in Carnwath 1835.
Names of children look about right and include Isabella, Allan and Adam
This family moved to UTAH!

ADAM Mark b 25 Jun 1819 .... Your direct line
married Mary Phillip in Barony 18 Apr 1841
Lived in Whitburn, West Lothian until 1871 but I can find no death for him.
Most of his children ( and their spouses) can be positively identified living in West Lothian until 1901

ALEXANDER Mark b 23 Jun 1822.
Married Catherine circa 1845 and can be found in Whiburn, West Lothian until 1871.

JAMES Mark b 1 Nov 1826
Married Janet circa 1852. and lived in Shotts until 1861
This family is found in Barclay, Bradford, PA from 1870 onwards

THOMAS FOREST Mark b 16 Feb 1831
Married Janet Denham in Cambusnethan 1855
Lived in Shotts until 1861 and can be found in Barclay, Bradford PA from 1870 onwards

JANET Mark b 30 Apr 1833


I have not added the next generation in any of these families..... info overload at this stage!

Anne

I've noticed that the names jean and Jane are commonly interchanged so maybe this is the jean Mark on 1841 census, Both are born Bothwell.


1861 Scotland Census about Jane Mark
Name: Jane Mark
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relationship: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil parish: Cambusnethan
Town: Wishaw
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Caledonian Road
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 186
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1861_93
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Mcneil 41
Margaret R Mcneil 40
Duncan Mcneil 19
John Mcneil 14
Margaret Mcneil 12
Malcolm Mcneil 7
Mary Mcneil 2
>>>>>>>>>>>Jane Mark 21
Helen Mark 71

Re Michael McCue

Perhaps the 1st Michael died. He does not seem to appear on the 1891 census only the 1881?

Possibly his death as same area as 1881 census

1881 MCCUE MICHAEL M 3 OLD MONKLAND (WESTERN DISTRICT) /LANARK 652/01 0100