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Hi Choccy

Yes it does look like that could be the one - everything seems to fit and it may explain a few other things if it is. I had a similar search for a maternal great grandmother and she died much earlier than I originally estimated (got the right cert in the end), so will apply to GRO this afternoon and see what comes back Maybe I need to ask my informant some different questions!

Thanks for your help

J-A

I still think the Robert William Smith who died in 1933 is probably the correct one.

The only way to find out for certain is to purchase the death certificate.

He is definitely with the family in 1932 and is missing after that.

He is about the right age at death and Devas Street is in Poplar district.

Hi Choccy

Thanks for this information - I didn't have the 1932 and 1933 info - I know they were at Devas Street because Ernest and Beatrice had children and their son remembers them being at Devas Street - he has memories of his Grandfather (Robert William) and the dates I have used are after questioning him!! So the 1932/1933 date is too early for a death - unless the memories are from photos - or he has a really good memory going back, but I don't think so, still will expand my search a bit further back. Also helpful to have a the name of who Bob's (Robert William Jnrs) wife was.

Eliza Ann left Devas Street during the war (bombed out) and went to live with her daughter 'down the line' - so just past Stratford somewhere, but no memory of Robert William also moving out. I tried to pin it down a bit more but so far nothing more specific than late 30's to late 40's really - will check out the earlier 30's though

Thank you

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Robert William Smith
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Age: 21
Spouse Name: Florence Isabel Spriggs
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 Nov 1916
Parish: Poplar St Andrew
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Robert William Smith
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Slaney Spriggs
Register Type: Parish Register

>>>>address of groom - 10 Devas Street

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006

Name: Robert W Smith
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1933
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Poplar
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 512

In 1932 the Smith family are still in Devas Street - (as per 1911 census)


London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965

Name: Robert William Smith Snr
Year: 1932
County or Borough: Tower Hamlets
Ward or Division/Constituency: Poplar
Street Address: 10 Devas Street


living at the same address are -

Eliza Ann Smith
Beatrice Maud Smith
Ernest Robert Smith
Thomas William Smith

living next door at No. 8 Devas Street are -

Robert William Smith Jnr and Florence Isobel Smith



in 1933 - living at 10 Devas Street are:-

Eliza Ann Smith
Beatrice Maud Smith
Ernest Robert Smith
Frank Henry Smith
Thomas William Smith

still living next door at No. 8 are Robert William and Florence Isobel Smith


No further sign of Robert William Smith Snr, which I suspect means he died sometime around 1932/1933.

I am pulling up this thread again as I have to keep same family on the same thread but looking for the DEATH of Robert William Smith (sorry) born in 1870 –who married Eliza Ann Steel(e) –.

I am working on a time period of late 1930’s to early 1950’s.

Here is what I know:

Born March1870 (Poplar)
Married May 1904 (Poplar)

and ‘know’

He was likely alive until at least the late 1930’s but had most likely died before the early 1950’s I am expecting a death sometime during the 1940’s but find these as most likely – but none seem quite right! I have searched FreeBMD 1939 to 1953

Deaths Mar 1941 (>99%)
________________________________________
Smith Robert G 71 Poplar
1c 533



Deaths Sep 1945 (>99%)
________________________________________
Smith Robert 71 Poplar
1c 152



Deaths Jun 1953 (>99%)
________________________________________
SMITH Robert W 68 W.Ham
5a 517


1941 has middle initial ‘G’ – but the age adds up, the 1945 could be but the age is out and 1953 is Robert W but the age is way out!

I know I will have to go for one of these Death certs (and it might not be any of them) but thought I would see if anyone has any ideas as so far none of them seem to fit – and I realise that whoever registered the death might not have been sure of all the facts!

Does anyone have any suggestions please?

Thank you

Hi ChristinaS

Thanks for the William Smith (even without a middle name) possibility - everything is helpful - which is more than I can say for my ancestors! I might have to follow up on the small dead Reuben - to see if that takes me anywhere. The lack of a viable marriage between William and Jane is causing a delay as I can't see where they are or who they are with anywhere else without it! But not giving up.... All of your input is most appreciated.

There's this one, but he doesn't have a middle name.


Name: William Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1830
Baptism Date: 3 Oct 1830
Father's Name: John Smith
Mother's Name: Frances Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Registers


On the original it says he was born in Charles Street, and his father was a waterman.

Yes, I think that it was quite likely a second marriage - for both William and Jane, as they were a bit older than I expected for a first marriage, which is why I had high hopes of the Wandsworth marriage (widower and widow), but I think I need to go back to William (1830) born in Woolwich and see if I can find anything more on him - but Smith is an awkward name to research - especially as they have frequently used first names!

William (1830) missing in 1871 - maybe a sea, perhaps that is why there was a 5/6 year gap between Henry and William (1870)

So far can only find an potentially appropriate Robert, but not a Woolwich William


Surname:Smith
Forenames:Robert
Baptism Year:1830
Baptism Month:FEB
Baptism Day:21
Mother:Ann
Father:William
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Place: Woolwich
County:Kent
Source:St.Mary Magdalen Woolwich 1813-1837 baptisms

As I have nothing / nobody else to attach him to then it is all guesswork - and too many Smiths by far

Jane in 1871 - there is quite a age gap between Henry and Robert. Possibly it was a second marriage for Henry:

1871 England Census
about Henry Smith
Name: Henry Smith
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Parent's Name: Jane Smith - married, laundress, b Glasgow
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse
Civil parish: Poplar All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 164
Piece: 582
Folio: 51
Page Number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
Jane Smith 40
Henry Smith 6
Robert Smith 1

Hi Potty

Thanks for posting the 1881. You are right - Jane's age at marriage does not tie up with the 1881- I hadn't checked that before and I have just got out my calculator (but still make it the same) also William's age does not tie up with the 1881 and the age gap does not agree when comparing their ages with the marriage and the 1881. Plus the Wandsworth William's age is more like the brother-in-law William's age. All very fishy.

So I have to conclude that the Wandsworth marriage is not the one for me - ChristinaS, Mary and you are all in agreement that it it doesn't 'fit' and for different reasons. At least I am sure of that now - but need to try to think about how else I can track her down - perhaps they didn't marry at all.

Just for info:

1881 England Census
about Henry Smith
Name: Henry Smith
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Smith
Mother's Name: Jane Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Poplar
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 53 Market Street
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Laborer

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 506
Folio: 47
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
William Smith 51 mariner
Jane Smith 49 b Glasgow, Tailoress
Henry Smith 16 b Limehouse
Robert Smith 11 b Limehouse
Reuben Smith b Poplar

Henry's birth:

Births Mar 1865
Smith Henry George Stepney 1c 520

Jane's age doesn't tie up with the marriage in 1865.

Mmm that is interesting, and possible, - but the first child of the marriage Henry George was born in Limehouse, Middlesex 1865/1866, so is it feasible? If so, why McKenzie Nelson on the birth cert?

??
Jane Mckenzie married Robert Smith 9/2/1866 in Calton Glasgow Lanark Scotland.Info of Family search site(LDS)

Maryb.

So maybe I am looking for a Smith/ Jane Nelson marriage (not apparent that there is one) and maybe the McKenzie is her middle name and Nelson the surname - but then surely the birth cert would just say formerly Nelson rather than McKenzie Nelson.

I don't think that marriage is correct as the birth cert for Robert William Smith 1870 would say mum Jane nee Bearman.

Maryb.

I know - that is why I posted the marriage and thought I would see if anyone else could see something I couldn't. I tried Robert /William / Smith/ McKenzie /Nelson combinations - came up with nothing more.

As far as I can see there isn't a pre-existing connection with Wandsworth, William (1830) was born in Woolwich it seems - and I have found two possible births - one called William and one called Robert. There was a connection in the Steele/Thompson lot on the death of a small Reuben with Woolwich, maybe Wandsworth was Jane's connection.

I would have thought that somehow Jane might have been recorded with both McKenzie and Nelson - and the Bearman does throw me a bit too.

William's job doesn't worry me - perhaps he married her as she was expecting, then regretted it and ran away to sea!

I'm not really happy about the 1865 marriage.

Wouldn't Jane's surname be Nelson, not McKenzie? And this one has a father with the surname Bearman.

Also, it has William as a labourer.

Haven't been able to find anything better though.

Hi ChristinaS

Thanks for your interest in my ongoing thread.

It is very helpful to see that William (or whatever) and Jane were married before - I thought it was a bit late for them to be getting married for the first time, but didn't want to be judgmental.... I did find a family - with a Jane (Nelson) and husband and children but discounted them - might see if I can tie them in - must have had a reason to ignore them before.

I did wonder about William Snr/the brother-in-law - and on the baptism it shows William Robert - but if he had an older brother also named William that seems very strange - it just occurred to me that maybe on the Census it was really him - but why would they lie? Or maybe a half-brother? Or he had a sister who married another William Smith!! Who knows!

It did seem logical to me to put it on a separate thread as I was going backwards in time looking for McKenzies and it seems Nelsons, and I put in the link so that helpers wouldn't waste time posting the going forward information - and I didn't want to contravene any rules. I suppose technically any threads about my relatives should be on one - as after all they are ALL my ancestors