Find Ancestors

on the 1911 census there is a James Edward Dabner born 1880/81 married to Charlotte with daughter Kathleen Mary. Kathleen's mother's maiden name was Sheppard and the marriage of James and Charlotte Sheppard was in 1903. Living in Tamworth where both Charlotte and Kathleen were born

Update on 1939 registration I paid a Charlotte Dabnar with correct birthdate

Husband is James E Rather a postman and are warden B ,15/12 1880

Living bridge at Atherston Warwickshire

Can't find their marriage

Other Charlotte with correct births had middle names on 1939 reg so eliminate them

Update

Lottie.s baby:

Jessie Smith birth registration Swansea last quarter of 1906

Mothers mmm given as Bourn

This fits in with passing Herbert Smith off as her husband and Lottie Roberts also known as Bourn E

Jessie was a name liked by the actress as her stage name was Jessie Baker

Now to find if Jessie became Jessie Ball when fostered

The Lottie Roberts who was taken to trial in 1907 for conspiracy to defraud and for larceny of 4 cinematography films !

From newspaper reports we know she
had a baby daughter in Swansea on 19 th Nov 1906

While lodging with Mrs Philips at 122 western St

She then paid 4s. A week for the baby to board with Mrs Ball of 7 Albert row penrhhiewtyn Neath

Mrs Ball did not want to part with the baby

as Lottie was imprisoned for 8 months in July 1907 maybe the girl was still with her in 1911 and was unofficial adopted

More and more convinced that this is our Lottie

I don't do rootschat and brigid has had eye problems but get help sharing all this information Chris

Apologies for the mistakes it all came very suddenly and she was making notes from memories

Our mother likes reading the news reports and comparingns tyles


The prison Bridewell is mentioned for Leo

Wonder where lottie was sent and if they have records


My aunt says even if it wasn't her grandmother this was a brave woman who helped others. And I.m glad lily.s baby wasn't dead. I wonder if it was retrieved from the workhouse and if thevgrandmother was a heroine for reporting the traffic or mercenary after money and compensation?

Simie on below, so Not that 'Lottie' one on 1901!...

Chris :)

1901 (Find My Past)
Maxwell M Benoliel Head Married Male 68 1833 Clergyman Church Of England -
Harriett Benoliel Wife Married Female 64 1837 - London, England
Sinice H Benoliel Daughter Single Female 28 1873 - Croydon, Surrey, England
Alice M Holmes Servant Single Female 23 1878 General Servant Domestic Paddington, Middlesex, England
Street Oxford Road
Parish Willesden
County Middlesex
Municipal ward South Kilburn
Registration district Hendon
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 1221
Folio 175
Page 25

(and as said, with her Mother and Daughter 1911, Surrey, Simie Carmichael, widow)


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.81

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758108.0

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1362903


http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3349592/3349597/93/LIVERPOOL

(1907 article above, with mention of 7, Albert Row, Penrhiwtyn, Neath)



29 June 1907 - Wellington Journal - Wellington, Shropshire, England

THE CHARGE OF BABY FARMING.
Subsequently the prisoners were charged before Captain Denton with having stolen 4.000 feet of cinematographie films, valued at I3e. 4d.. from the Clarence Mimic Hall, Crickhowcl. Brecon, on the Uth December; last. They were also committed ...”

Thanks Chris .I wonder what her origins were ...at least I don't have to print it out for my mum to do facial family resemblances

My gran and her neice Olive were both teased at school for being darker eyes and or skin

nana.s father was Jewish Latvian but doesn't look very dark

Olives father was a professor from Roumania

As for reference to Rootschat postings, Brigid has below wrong...(he wasn't born in Cheshire, was Lincolnshire. Cheshire link I posted for 1881 reference, Birth Charlotte Roberts)

cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php
birth has a Percy Myles william C. Caistor
father A.C Percy b Grimsby 1863


And can you give them the Marriage reference 1901 for Simie, and her Birth...(and her in 1911, Surrey)

Also, is one of you ever going to get that 1881 Birth Cert. of Charlotte Roberts, lol...

Chris :)

(and again!, getting confusing having findings here, and then 'over there')


(and yes, age is wrong on below, 43 in Death Notice, Newspaper I posted, and is now also 'over there'!. There is another snippet too, giving age of 42, he had Pneumonia)

Deaths Mar 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carmichael Thomas Percy 58 Epsom 2a 26

Well she wasn't 'made up', she was below!. If you look at it, you can see how she came to be 'Lottie' for her actress name!...Her age is out on 1901 Census.

Edits, now known not to be Simie on 1901!.

their Daughter was Born in 1902, as posted earlier.


Births Jun 1872 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
BEN-OLIEL Simie Harriette Croydon 2a 219

Chris :)


Anyway, rules out Charlotte Roberts, she is still in hiding...

(lol, for newspapers, I found that George Jacob one for Brigid in the Welsh one also!)


http://tinyurl.com/hnbq7zl

(article about the couple, Leo Selwyn, Lottie Roberts, from google search, and probably more in newspapers also)

(yes, loads!)

18 July 1907 - Wells Journal - Wells, Somerset, England

BABY FARMERS SENTENCED.

...Herbert Smith, aged 21. a conjurer, and Lottie Roberts, aged 20. an actress, pleaded guilty on Monday at Liverpool Assizes to having unlawfully obtained money by false pretences at Liverpool in April and other months. The prisoners ...”

The story of the actors and baby trafficker s needs a separate thread !

This story is taking on wings over on Rootschat

Several UK births 1901-1907 may not be who they think they are as some of the children buyers or seller's never came forward to join prosecution case as they didn't want their childless ness or illegitimate birth respectively to be revealed

But the birth child of Lottie Roberts /smith Evans/Carmichael??? Could be Nana's half sibling

And the others could lead to present day mitochondrial DNA testers to think tests are wrong because no obvious links with families and the assumption is that mother on trees is the birth mother !

Not to mention that if it is our Charlotte she could have tricked George Jacob into paying for a baby that was really Arthur Percy what'sit

DETECTIVES FIELD DAY

Thanks Chris I too think that Semi Henrietta sounds like a made up name

Here is an article with picture about a name changing Charlotte Roberts in 1907anyone think she looks like nana Maisie from Brigid avatar

The age is out but I think the pictured Charlotte looks older than 20 and is an habitual liar and actress from her past exploits


http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176824/4176826/30/

Thanks argyll not seen that link before .

Don't know if this has already been posted or not.

Mabel Percy Moore and Arthur C Percy both in paragraph 96.36 of link below, re a stage production called "The Lucky Star", in 1896.

http://tinyurl.com/zmqjwnf

(below added earlier)

Chris :)

06 October 1894 - The Era - London, London, England

PERCY.-At Grimsby, on Oct. 1st, the wife of Arthur C. Percy (Mabel Percy-Moore), of a son. Both doing well.


15 December 1892 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire

Marriage
CARMICHAEL - WARHURST.-At Derby, the 14th, Thomas Percy Carmichael, of Glasgow (Professionally known Arthur C. Percy), to Mabel Warhurst, granddaughter of the late William Carver, of Nottingham.


25 February 1905 - The Era - London, London, England

THEATRICAL GOSSIP.
We regret to record the death of Mr. Thomas Percy Carmichael (professionally known Arthur Cecil Percy), which occurred Epsom on the 16th inst. Mr. Percy was native of Glasgow, and was known as a very painstaking actor in heavy and character parts. His demise at the early age of 43 is deeply regretted by his many friends and acquaintances, especially so by his sorrowing wife. The deceased was interred on Monday at Epsom.



Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
BEN-OLIEL Simie Harriette Birmingham 6d 320
Carmichael Thomas Percy Birmingham 6d 320
FREEMAN Esther Jane Birmingham 6d 320
PINGREFFE Annie Birmingham 6d 320
Stevenson Thomas Birmingham 6d 320


(wouldn't be surprised if number 1 on list was second wife, 'Lottie' made from those names!)

(yes!, Marriage notice in below article. Married on Saturday, 14th September, Simie was Daughter of Rev. M Ben-Oliel, of Kilburn)

19 September 1901 - The Stage - London, London, England

(Herbert Woodin and Madge Palmer never Married until 1902, so Thomas was just before, or after on 1901)


Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CARMICHAEL Coralie Esther P Hampstead 1a 611

(their Daughter, with Simie (Actress), 1911, Mortlake, Surrey)


So, not Charlotte Roberts , will leave you to get that Birth Cert. then!...

Post from Annette on Rootschat

Arthur Carmichael Percy married Mabel Moore 14/12/1892 in Register Office, Derby - he is shown as 30, Elocutionist, son of Thomas Percy, Commercial Clerk - she aged 21, dau. of Henry Moore, Traveller. The marriage certificate is shown in the divorce papers.

1901 Census shows Mabel - after remarriage - as bc.1876 Nottingham, and there is indeed a birth for a Mabel Warhurst (the other name referred to earlier) in Dec.qtr.1875 Nottingham.

Divorce - petitioned 31/10/1899, Decree Nisi 29/1/1900, Final Decree 3/10/1900 and it was he who was the petitioner - Thomas Percy Carmichael otherwise Arthur Carmichael Percy v. Mabel Carmichael on the grounds of her adultery with Henry Gordon Smith (who she subsequently married). Custody of their son was granted to him.

When Mabel remarried in Dec.1900 Luton there are 4 separate entries for her in names of Mabel Percy, Mabel Warhurst, Mabel Moore and Mabel Carmichael!

Even with details of his supposed father I can still find nothing positive on Arthur (or whatever his name was) pre his marriage to Mabel in 1892.

Whoever 'Lottie' was on 1901 Census (which started all this off) although she is shown as 'married' to Arthur I don't believe any marriage had taken place and hope in a way she isn't Charlotte Roberts because can find nothing on 'Arthur' after 1901 in the 2 surnames we know he used nor a likely Charlotte/Lottie with these names.

Sounds like his whole life was an act and can't believe a word he says!

EXTRA Info from another rootschatter ...Mabels father was not really the one stated on birthbcert

To clarify

Elgin street is address given on baptism no number

29 Edgar st is the address Charlotte gave as her residence on Maisie's birth certificate
1 Menai St is given as Maisies place of birth
(her father's adrress)

I think I previously changed the opening to punctuate
and accidently swithced maisie + Charlottes birth years ...

well spotted ..will edit now
the search on Genes started in 1912
when I knew the name of Nana maisie's mother
and potential surname of her father

but didnt know what became of thm after maisies birth in 1899

but

(below is 1881 Charlotte Birth. Miles Burial was added as an observation of name in Lincs., in case he related to A. C. on 1901)

Chris :)

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1881

ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead Wirral BIR/124/92

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Births Jun 1881 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead 8a 518


(goes with the 1881 Baptism details posted earlier, from below)

Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)


(above also has below Baptism)

Roberts Massie Miriam 1900 (21st March)

(Born 11th Dec 1899, Mother, Lottie Roberts. Abode, Elgin Street)


(which as you already know, is below)


Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1899

ROBERTS Maisie Fellman Birkenhead Wirral BIR/203/53



(not sure why you stated below at beginning of this 'Thread', think you need to change it, for sake of confusion!)

Alisoun Report 18 May 2012 18:09

I challenge anyone to find what happened to my nan,s birthparents
Maisie( fellman )Roberts born dec 1881 to Charlotte Roberts in Birkenhead
Father unnamed



Edits (although I put Elgin Street on Baptism, from image, Brigid has below, just to add I'm not familiar with area!)

"Lottie had her baby at 1 menai st on 12th dec 1899 giving her father's address 29 Edgar st Birkenhead .
On birth certificate nana is Maisie, Fellman (middle name), Roberts and Charlotte is recorded as draper's assistance
she obtained an affiliation order against George Jacob Fellman in jan 1900
The baptism later in march has Lottie Roberts as mother to Massie Miriam Roberts"


Edits (notes in article below date, a review of a drama ' Soldiers of the Queen' mentioning, Herbert Woodin, Madge Palmer (they didn't marry until 1902!) and Arthur C. Percy.

16 March 1901 - The Era - London, London, England


06 October 1894 - The Era - London, London, England

PERCY.-At Grimsby, on Oct. 1st, the wife of Arthur C. Percy (Mabel Percy-Moore), of a son. Both doing well.


15 December 1892 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire

Marriage
CARMICHAEL - WARHURST.-At Derby, the 14th, Thomas Percy Carmichael, of Glasgow (Professionally known Arthur C. Percy), to Mabel Warhurst, granddaughter of the late William Carver, of Nottingham.

Hi Chris
yes it is long and complicated

Yes the baptism with parents john roberts =caroline is correct

the birth of Charlotte Elinor roberts is definitely ruled out .

Of course my mother did obtain a birth cert at start of her research but it was the wrong Charlotte born 1877

I'll get Brigid to triple check refs before sending for the one you've given

We'd love our Lottie to have become a comedien but didn't find what became of Lottie Pearcy

Bit confused by the death you posted of Miles Pearcy in 1898
are you saying that would be her stepson Myles grandfather ? I'll go and reread the roots thread . Its been getting a lot of attention and has over 17000 views

Thanks a lot ..

EDIT. the 19 year old Lottie Percy on the 1901 census
is recorded as married
But not necessarily to the 38 year old A.C Pearcy...

They are both boarders
But relationship to each other and to 6 year old Myles Percy is not given
Could be a sister-in law or cousin in the acting line

(just to add below for info., not sure which Census you have found with her, or where!)

Chris :)

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Percy Myles William C Caistor 7a 621


1901 (Find My Past)
Thomas Carbutt Head Married Male 41 1860 Glass Bottle Maker Kippax, Yorkshire, England
Mary J Carbutt Wife Married Female 42 1859 - Kirkstead, Lincolnshire, England
A C Percy Visitor Married Male 38 1863 Comedian Lincolnshire, England
Myles Percy Visitor Single Male 6 1895 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Lottie Percy Visitor Married Female 19 1882 Comedienne Birkenhead, Cheshire,
H Woodin Visitor Married Male 24 1877 Comedian London, Middlesex, England
Madge Woodin Visitor Married Female 22 1879 Comedienne At Sea
Street Albion Street
Parish Castleford
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding) Municipal ward Carlton
Registration district Pontefract
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 4304
Folio 74
Page 7


http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(Birkenhead Births covered on above, added below)


Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1881

ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead Wirral BIR/124/92


Births Jun 1881 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Birkenhead 8a 518


(or, if you mean below, not sure where Baptism details are, without reading all through!)


Births Dec 1881 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERTS Charlotte Ellinor Liverpool 8b 21

Edits

Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)

(from image above, Baptism 1881 3rd July, Parents, John & Caroline. Abode, 27 Greenfield Street Birkenhead. Father occ. Boiler Maker)


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.18

(and Myles covered on above!, all a bit too much everywhere to keep up with!)


(and because of name, below, if related)

County Lincolnshire
Place Crowle
Church name St Oswald
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 712
Burial date 15 May 1898
Person age 67
Burial person forename Miles
Burial person surname PEARCEY
Burial person abode Crowle

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above link)


Marriages Sep 1868 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Almey Ann Thorne 9c 689
Peacey Miles Thorne 9c 689

After all this time it's been pointed out that we don't have Charlotte's exact birth date and once we had baptism details assumed birthdate was July too

But its likely to have been April before the 1881 census

Rookie mistake as maybe with exact birthdate we can search for Charlotte ?maiden name Roberts on the 1939 register

So that's our next move

Update.Still looking for Lottie

Some of the Charlotte's definitely ruled out are because of multiple factors.
Married names
Charlotte Hughes llandidno Found With her mother in 1891
charlotte Prescott too old ..wrong birthplace

Any with middle names are unlikely

Any with brothers sisters or parents in 1901 not ours because Charlotte's only sis and father were still at family address in 1901

Any with parents still living after 1909

Still POSSIBLE

The single Charlotte Roberts at a dressmakers shop in Conway. 1911
Birthplace Liverpool
Tho this may be the Charlotte Elinor Roberts B 1881 Liverpool

Lottie Pearcy actress b1881 Birkenhead
maiden name unknown
Son or stepson Miles

No further info on them