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Oh my - I suspect that would be him. The children were born in South Otterington in the Thirsk district.

Does this chap appear in 1901 and 1911?

I keep coming back to this bloke. There was no Edward Horner, born Thirsk at about that time.

1891 England Census
Name: Edward Horner
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: South Otterington, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Coxlodge
Ecclesiastical parish: Gosforth
Town: Gosforth
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Street Address: Heathfield

Occupation: Butler

Condition as to marriage: Single

Registration district: Castle Ward
Sub-registration district: Ponteland
Piece: 4241
Folio: 24
Page Number: 42
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas T Smith 51
Louisa T Smith 34
Mabel L T Smith 9
Edward Horner 25
Isabella Elliott 22
Jane Alice Wilson 19
Margaret J Norton 24

Oh wow! Thank you as this is amazing and so kind of you. It is much appreciated! You have helped me many times before and this great. So kind.

I have looked on FREE BMD but nothing for deaths for Charles junior or Edmund! Thanks again though. This is fantastic.

Just to tidy up:

Marriages Dec 1864
Hogg Mary Thirsk 9d 768
HORNER Charles Thirsk 9d 768

Births Dec 1865 Horner Fred Thirsk 9d 349
Births Dec 1867 Horner Edmund Thirsk 9d 365
Births Sep 1870 HORNER Ada Thirsk 9d 371
Births Jun 1872 HORNER Jane Thirsk 9d 383
???
Births Dec 1875 HORNER Mary Alice Thirsk 9d 399
Deaths Jun 1876 Horner Mary Alice 0 Thirsk 9d 246

and then:
Deaths Sep 1876 Horner Mary 37 Thirsk 9d 269

Going back to Charles in 1911, he also states his marriage was of 15 years.

Therefore:

Marriages Mar 1886
HORNER Charles Thirsk 9d 563
MANFIELD Ann Thirsk 9d 563
MANFIELD Annie Thirsk 9d 563
MANSFIELD Ann Thirsk 9d 563
MANSFIELD Annie Thirsk 9d 563
[All 4 names are in the register for Annie]

Births Dec 1886 Horner Charles Thirsk 9d 423

Births Mar 1888 HORNER Mansfield Thirsk 9d 403
Deaths Mar 1888 HORNER Annie 41 Thirsk 9d 271
HORNER Mansfield 0 Thirsk 9d 271

7 children, 4 living in 1911 - possibly 2 deaths are Mary Alice and Mansfield. You know Ada and Frederick are alive in 1911. And it looks as if Jane is also:
Marriages Mar 1905
ARMSTRONG George Thirsk 9d 625 <<<<<
DALE John Thirsk 9d 625
HORNER Jane Thirsk 9d 625 <<<<<
TREWHITT Edith Annie Thirsk 9d 625
Checking the 1911 census it looks like Edith Annie Trewhitt married John Dale.
And this kinda confirms George & Jane married though I can't find them on 1911.
Births Dec 1911 Armstrong Mary I (Horner) Thirsk 9d 820

Therefore either Charles or Edmund must be dead.


Charles snr ???:
Deaths Dec 1927 Horner Charles 85 Thirsk 9d 479

I'm with you now. Didn't pick that up.


However my feeling is that Ada is Agnes/Ann's granddaughter. Charles's parents are John & Ann. Ann is born in Berwick on Tweed, Scotland. In 1881 she's recorded as Agnes Ann.

Hi Patchem, I suppose it is a high possibility that Edmund died overseas! But I really don't know.

And in 1911 ... thanks for the info on the children of Charles. The idea Ada was adopted was taken from the 1881 when it is POSSIBLE she is described as the daughter of a family in South Otterington (could be a mistake made at the time, of perhaps not the correct Ada). So ADA was a daughter of Charles HORNER but the adoption refers to the family she may have been staying with in 1881.

Peter, I know you have Charles's info but in 1911 he states that he had 7 children, 4 living.

Where does the idea of Ada being adopted come from?

1911 England Census
Name: Charles Horner
Age in 1911: 68
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Askerton Bidale, Yorkshire, England [Image is Askew Bidale which fits with Birthplace Aiskew just north of Bedale.]
Civil parish: South Otterington
County/Island: Yorkshire-North Riding
Country: England
Street Address: South Otterington Northallerton
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Loging Bucklartor [image - Jobing Bricklayer]
Registration district: Thirsk
Sub-registration district: Thirsk

Piece: 29053
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Horner 68

Do you think Edmund could also have gone into the army and died overseas?

Posting Edmund in 1881 for family reference:
1881 England Census
Edmund Horner Age: 13 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Nephew Gender: Male Where born: South Otterington, Yorkshire, England Civil parish: Newby Wiske
County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Street Address: Village of Newby Wiske
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Thirsk Sub-registration district: Pickhill
ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Piece: 4819 Folio: 27 Page Number: 5
Thomas Hogg 49 South Otterington
Ann Hogg 49 York
Ann Hogg 15
Edmund Horner 13
Ann Tebb 45 cousin married South Otterington
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4819; Folio: 27; Page: 5; GSU roll: 1342162.

1891 England Census
Name: Frederick Horner
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Non Com Officer (Officer)
Gender: Male
Where born: Thirsk, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Occupation: Corporal

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Regent
ED, institution, or vessel: Regents Park Barracks

Piece: 118
Folio: 228
Page Number: 10
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Horner 25

There's a possibility he may have been overseas in 1901.

He (Edmund) was not obvious when I tried for him first.

Thanks Patchem ... interesting that Ada may have been adopted?! Hmmm, I need to start enquiring about BMD certs.

Thanks as ever.

Thanks you have now found me another cousin in Jane and thank you also for the offer of the army records Choccy! Wow, I am glad I logged on tonight!

Whist on the topic, is their a sign of Edmund Horner? He is one of the above mentioned people's brothers. I am wondering if he may be easier to search in the 1911?

?
1881 England Census
Ada Horner Age: 10 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Agnes A. Horner
Gender: Female
Where born: South Otterington, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: South Otterington County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England Street Address: South Otterington Village
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Thirsk Sub-registration district: Pickhill
ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Piece: 4819 Folio: 41 Page Number: 8
Agnes A. Horner 56 Scotland
John Horner 25
William Horner 21 Newby Wiske
Mary A. Horner 14
Ada Horner 10
Ernest A. Horner 2
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4819; Folio: 41; Page: 8; GSU roll: 1342162.

1871 England Census
John Horner Age: 50 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Horner
Gender: Male Where born: Burtonleoward, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Newby Wiske Town: Newby Wiske
County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Registration district: Thirsk Sub-registration district: Pickhill
ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Household schedule number: 26
Piece: 4832 Folio: 28 Page Number: 6
John Horner 50
Ann Horner 48 Scotland
Edward Horner 22
William Horner 10 Newby Wiske
Henry Horner 9
Mary A Horner 4
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4832; Folio: 28; Page: 6; GSU roll: 847367.

Will send you the army records by PM

?
Births Sep 1870
HORNER Ada Thirsk 9d 371

Births Jun 1872
HORNER Jane Thirsk 9d 383

1881 England Census
Jane Horner Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Lodger Gender: Female Where born: South Cotterington, Yorkshire, England Civil parish: Kirk Hammerton County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Street Address: Private Cottage
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Great Ouseburn Sub-registration district: Whixley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Piece: 4322 Folio: 6 Page Number: 8
William Jun. Renton 41
Ellen Renton 36
Annie Renton 11
John Renton 9
Ellen Renton 6
Mary Ann Renton 1
xxx Jane Horner 8
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4322; Folio: 6; Page: 8; GSU roll: 1342031.

Ah now I see your update ... I wonder if Jane mentioned in the 1891 census is a misttake and should read ADA?!

And wow! Those military records are amazing. Are they on ancestry? I would love to see them.

Also, to add confusion, who is Charles Horner born c. 1886 living with Ada Horner?! Can you see him in 1891 please?

Marriages Sep 1892 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HARRIS Rose Windsor 2c 857
SOANE George Windsor 2c 857
Taylor Edith Windsor 2c 857


2nd male missing!

here he is -

HORNER Fred Windsor 2c 837