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I tried that scenario didn't pan out.
From what i've gathered James. was boarding with Ellen and her sister Ann Tickle a widow on Eaton Street at Anns home at the time. So he possibly was given the name Livingstone because Ellen and James were married shortly after his birth.
Or he might really have been born at a later date?

I'm just trying to figure out when James Sr. and Ellen were living with Ellen's sister Ann Tickle, widow. I see Ann married Matthew Tickle in 1839:

Marriages Sep 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MOLYNEUX Ann Liverpool 20 161
Tickle Matthew Liverpool 20 161

And Matthew died in 1849:

Deaths Dec 1849 (>99%)
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Tickle Matthew Liverpool 20 225

So Ellen was living with Ann in 1851:

1851 England Census
about Ann Fickel Name: Ann Fickel
[Ann Tickle]
[Ann Tickle]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Kirby, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: Vauxhall
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Howard Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 1o
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 160
Piece: 2178
Folio: 466
Page Number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Fickel 31
Ellen Molyneux 18
James Sickle 9
Mathew Sickle 6
John Sickle 3
William Bradley 40
Mary Bradley 32
William Bradley 12

I tried the James Molyneux route it didn't pan out
I have info that James sr. was boarding with Ann Tickle and her sister Ellen on Eaton Street. at the time of James jr's birth.
So she could of given him the Livingstone surname as they were married shortly after in 1858. also the year of his birth
could be anywhere from 1857 to 59.
The reason I'm saying this apparently, he never spoke of his life back in England much to his children and they only knew aprox. of the year he was born?

In 1861 Ann is remarried:

1861 England Census
about Matthew Tickel Name: Matthew Tickel
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Stepson
Mother's Name: Ann Burns
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 203
Piece: 2650
Folio: 126
Page Number: 31
Household Members: Name Age
Lawrence Burns 52
Ann Burns 46
James Tickel 19
Matthew Tickel 16
John Tickel 13

So when was James boarding with Ann?

I was told by a descendant of Ann Tickle that James was living there in about 1851 on til he married Ellen
James Livingston(e) - boarder

Ann (nee Molyneux) Tickle b/1820 daughter of john & Elizabeth Molyneux m/22/09/1839 to a Matthew Tickle

Yes Margee, he was married in Canada. I have a copy of his marriage certificate .it states his mothers name as Ellen and his father as Molyneux which is not his name but Ellens maiden name of which i found to be fact through a relative of mine his grandaughter. and through research found the only ellen molyneux at that time married to a livingston(e) was to a James

So you have no written evidence anywhere that James is his father
.
In fact he appears to be acknowledging the fact that he was actually born as Molyneux.

I personally do not have the evidence but was given notice of the fact that he was christened a Livingstone by the afore named relative. I've just emailed her to get an update on her findings

Mike I have the marriage certificate. [MXE 080925] it states marriage March 7th 1858 All Souls Church, Liverpool
where did you get the following info from
-------Marriages:
James Livingstone
Spouse: Ellen Molyneux
Marriage: 07 MAR 1857 All Souls Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thanks ...Gary

As I posted yesterday .....



Something odd about the dates..........


Freebmd version

Marriages Mar 1858
LIVINGSTONE James - Liverpool 8b 285
Molyneux Ellen - Liverpool 8b 285

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Familysearch version ( extracted record )


James Livingstone --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: David Livington

-------Marriages:
Spouse: Ellen Molyneux
Marriage: 07 MAR 1857 All Souls Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England


By the way, someone can be registered in one surname and then Christened with another.

Or if born Dec 1857 they could have delayed the boy's registration until after they married in March 1858

Mike I suppose that is true. Also it;s hard to actually put a birth year for him. The reason I say this is on our Canadian census for 1901 it states he was born Dec.18/1859 and 1911 states he was born in Dec.1860 and on his death certificate it states he was born Dec. 10/1857 so its mind boggling trying to get a birth certificate or proof of his birth and whether his parents were the James and Ellen mentioned as I can't find if they had children

This is the marriage from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Ellen Molyneux

Name: Ellen Molyneux
Birth Year: abt 1834
Age: 23
Marriage Date: 7 Mar 1857
Parish: Vauxhall All Souls
Spouse's Name: James Livington
Father's Name: John Molyneux
Spouse Father's Name: David Livington


from image:-

Ellen
Age 23
Spinster
no occupation shown
Address:- 4 Gt Johnson Street
Father occupation- Labourer

James
Age 24
Bachelor
Occupation: Carter
Address:- 4 Gt Johnson St
Father occupation:- Labourer


Witnesses:- Thomas Holmes and Anna Blackworth (maybe!)



By the way ....... the fact that John and Ellen give the same address on the certificate does NOT mean that they were living together or even at the same address.

You will see bride and groom giving the same address on many certificates ............ it merely means that one of them did not live in the Parish in which they were marrying.

In that case, Banns were supposed to be called in both churches, but that cost money .............. so many people just said they lived at the same address so that the wedding was not too expensive.


You can make no assumption from the addresses on a marriage certificate.




sylvia


edited ca 7 pm Feb 17 ... bridegroom was JAMES


sorry!

It is very strange, as Mike said, that freebmd (and of course ancestry bmd) have the GRO record showing them marrying in March quarter 1858


It is no surprise that ancestry shows the same as freebmd ................ as they bought the bmd records from 1837 to 1915 from freebmd :-)


One possibility is clerical errors ....... delay in sending the records from with church or Liverpool Registry Office to GRO, and wrong year date added (possibly an attempt to cover up the error?????

OR the vicar mis-dated the register????????



The Lancashire bmd site also shows marriage in 1858

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1858

MOLYNEUX Ellen LIVINGSTONE James Liverpool, All Souls Liverpool 2021LP/1/9




sylvia

Hi Sylvia you posted
Ellen
age 23
spinster etc.
&
John
age 24
bachelor
carter
4 Ct. Johnson Street etc.
Is the Jonn right or is it supposed to have been James
If it is John it isn't the right Ellen??
Also I purchased a copy of their marriage from the Central Library in liverpool. and it states March 7 1858 All Souls church
Liverpool and the address is 4 Ct. Johnsoston/Johnson St.

Gary



oopsie!!


Bridegroom was James, as it states in the c&p'd entry from the parish register


I just mis-typed his name when giving you the information from the actual register. I'm sorry about that.

What I posted is from the Parish Register as digitised on ancestry

The date quite clearly is 1857 written in the top left hand corner of the page



HOWEVER ............. I may have solved the problem!


The date 1857 might well be a mistake by the Vicar of the day (or maybe Verger).


I have been able to go back to the previous page .................... and two marriages are quite clearly shown as taking place in November and December 1857!

The next wedding is Ellen and James in March ............ and that just HAS to be in 1858!


I am unable to move forward to the next page to check what date is written on there


Mike* ...................... do you have access to ancestry to double check???????



I read the address as being 4 Gt (for Great) Johnson St ...... as that is a street name I remember from my days in Liverpool

However, it might well be 4 Ct (for Court), Johnson St (there should have been a comma separating court from street, although often not used)


Courts were little alleys or offshoots from the street, entered via a narrow "ginnel" or archway. The houses were tiny, usually within indoor water etc, one toilet would be shared between all houses.




sylvia

Can't move on to the next page on the marriage register, however the next marriage doesn't even have a year written in!

Reckon the vicar had been at the communion wine.

I'd definitely say it was due to clerical error (sorry for bad pun).

Sorry, don't have Ancestry.

but firmly believe the date on the actual certificate to be correct.
Meaning that James born Dec 1857 would have been a Molyneux as parents didn't marry until 7th March 1858.

However they may have left the registration of James until AFTER they married so that he could be officially Livingstone.

Maybe the records office at Liverpool would do a search around Dec 1857 to find the certificate with the right parents.

MC

That's exactly what I saw, and couldn't do



I wonder why one cannot move on to the next page??? One usually can on ancestry!

Hi All; Now back to a bit of my initial post, James 1857 , whether he was given the surname Molyneux or Livingstone.
I still need to find a record of his birth. and if the James & Ellen on the marriage certificate are his actual parents.

Now the stickler We know they were married in 1858.
What is peculiar is they do not show up until the 1881 census
as James Livingston aged 50 labourer & Ellen aged 45 wife
They were living at 2H 10Ct. Up Milk Street in this census
[piece 3611 folio 37 page #33 ]if they are the same couple?

What is strange they are not listed on the 1861 or the 1871
census. Where I suppose if they had children, they would be listed as others in household.
I'd appreciate it if somebody might be able to find info on them somewhere between their marriage and the 1881 census.


There is another James aged 51 & Ellen aged 52 Livingstone which were born in Ireland and lived at Netherton, Station Cottage he was a Railways Pointsman. I know for fact they're not directly related. So they aren't the James & Ellen i'm looking for.
I have her maiden name somewhere in my data.