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Well - This is turning into an even deeper mystery !!! - Please bear with me as I am working to sort it all out !! :-S

John Douch WAS married twice - both times to a Mary Ann !!! - Not the one we started off with though !

I think the first one you have as Mary Ann Russell is correct but then she changes between 1871 and 1881 because he then married Mary Ann Gore in 1875 !!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about John Douch
Name: John Douch - Bricklayer.
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Gore
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Aug 1875
Parish: Walworth St John the Evangelist
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Douch - Bricklayer
Spouse Father Name: Robert Gore XXX - Image says Robert BEST - Chairmaker !!
Register Type: Parish Register

Both bride and groom had been widowed!
His address 3 Barlow Flush ???
Her's - 6 Osborne Hill

Witnesses : J Walker ?? + Hannah Walker.

I had been tracing him back because on 1911 it says that they had had 6 children - 5 still living and one had died.
I had found a lot more than 6 children and so was curious !

Also, it said they had been married 56 years (which was wrong!!) - the image said 36 - the Gore marriage fitted!

I had also found that on 1891, living next door was Joseph Douch, their son, now married, and living with them another couple, Simon Rowe and his wife Mary A (YES - ANOTHER ONE !!!)

Following this through, I found:

Marriages Dec 1889
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GORE Mary Ann E Camberwell 1d 1367 *****
LAKIN Caroline Nancy Camberwell 1d 1367
Mannering Geoffrey Camberwell 1d 1367
MANNERING George Camberwell 1d 1367
Rowe Simon Camberwell 1d 1367 **********

It all links up...........

Dea x

P.S. - Can someone bring me back to reality and tell me who we actually want to find - Is it Alice?

This does give us a few more options for her name??

Will sort my notes and come back in a while.

Dea x

Could this be 'your' Alice ????? :-0

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Alice Flora Gore Name: Alice Flora Gore
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1873
Baptism Date: 13 Apr 1873
Father's Name: Thomas Gore
Mother's name: Mary Ann Gore
Parish or Poor Law Union: Walworth St John the Evangelist
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

I am just going to check further!!.......................

Dea Xxx

:-D :-D

Oh,Dea-you are sooo clever!

I don't know who we're supposed to be checking anymore! :-S

Maureen <3

Thank you Maureen. - My head is 'whirring' :-0

I am sure she was after Alice but the other one was confusing matters !!! - And WHY are there SO many Mary Ann's among this lot ???

I wish I could find the Gore family on 1871 - Thomas will still be alive as they didn't have Alice until c 1873, but they did have another child born before 1871:


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Thomas Norman Gore Name: Thomas Norman Gore
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1870
Baptism Date: 27 Nov 1870
Father's Name: Thomas James Gore - French Polisher
Mother's name: Mary Ann Gore
Parish or Poor Law Union: Walworth St John the Evangelist
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address - 2 ? Richmond St.

Looks like he died in 1872 so he should be on 1871 census with his family?

Deaths Sep 1872
GORE Thomas Norman 1 Lambeth 1d 247

Dea x

Gottem !!!!!

1871 England Census
about Thomas Gerr Name: Thomas Gerr
Age: 5 Months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Gerr
Mother's name: Mary Ann Gerr
Gender: Male
Where born: Walworth, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Lambeth St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 197
Piece: 664
Folio: 92
Page Number: 34
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Gerr 27
Mary Ann Gerr 24
Mary Ann Gerr 3
Thomas Gerr 5 Months

at 2 Richmond St. !


Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 664; Folio: 92; Page: 34; GSU roll: 823322.

Dea Xxx - Now for a cup of tea ;-)

This is Thomas Snr.'s death then:

Deaths Mar 1873
Gore Thomas James 29 Lambeth 1d 275

I wonder if he got to see his new little daughter Alice ?

SO sad !

Dea x

OK-for some reason I think we're looking at this marriage:
Marriages Sep 1916
Douch Annie Light Horsham 2b 643
Light Henry Douch Horsham 2b 643

Lorraine said something about Alice known as Annie later on,etc. married 1916,lied about her age....

Obviously not the one we're looking at then.as she married as Alice Florence Gore (although the cert was later changed to read Alice Flora.).



:-S :-S :-S

Maureen

Well I would say that the Alice she is thinking is 'hers' on 1881 is most certainly the one who started off as a Gore and therefore NOT the one she needs.

SO - we really need Lorraine to come back with further info as I am sure that her Annie/Alice is not the same one !!!

I wonder if she has that marriage cert ?

Dea x

She seems to have it-knows the father's name at any rate.

What's driving me crazy is that there aren't that many Douch doings in Horsham but there's this one:
Marriages Sep 1911
Douch Rosie I Horsham 2b 711

Collins Harold V Horsham 2b 711

I'm wondering if that's Rosina Lydia???

And a few births for what looks like this couple:
Marriages Jun 1907
DOUCH Mary Elizabeth Reigate 2a 422
GARMAN Edward Reigate 2a 422

Strange.

Maureen

Just for the heck of it-this is the Mary Elizabeth who ends up in Horsham as Garman. She does have a sister Anne.

1881 census transcription details for: 27, Lime St, Sutton St Mary
RG number: RG11 Piece: 3208 Folio: 53 Page: 41

Reg. District: Holbeach Sub District: Long Sutton
DOUCH, Harry Head Married M 27 1854 Groom (Dom)
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire
DOUCH, Rosamond Wife Married F 26 1855
Walpole
Norfolk
DOUCH, Anne Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Sutton Bdge
Lincolnshire
>>>DOUCH, Mary E Daughter Single F 1 1880
Sutton Bdge
Lincolnshire


Think I'll stop now.

Maureen

Yes - I have stopped now until Lorraine comes back.

It DOES seem to be another family completely though but I would rather start with that marriage cert and work backwards from fact.

Dea Xxx

Yes indeed!

Maureenxxx

hi all sorry had to go to a statement meeting today but back now
thank you for the help
my alice /annie douch married in 1916 horsham to henry light she lists her dad as john douch a bricklayer on her marriage record but could not find a birth record , a family member told me she lied about her age all her life and i could not find an annie douch to fit the info i had untill i looked at the 1871 census and then the 1881 census but then was confused as if alice was listed as alice schroder with parents thomas and mary a in 1871 why was she called alice douch with mum mary a douch and john douch in 1881 ??why was she living with them and calling them her parents in 1881 if thomas schoder and mary a are still alive ???? i could not find her as alice or annie douch in 1891 but in 1901 and 1911 she is living with henry light in horsham calling herself ann light even though they did not marry till 1916 - which has upset some of my nans sisters as they can see they were born out of wedlock lol so wanted to find out more info on her (alice / annie douch ) but i kept hitting brick walls or going round in circles. she is known by the older relations as alice but on her marriage its annie douch no middle name and some relations said she was called ann - depends on what part of her life you look at lol
many thanks lorraine

Could you give us ALL the other details from that marriage cert please - ages, occupations, fathers, addresses and witnesses etc.

Thanks,

Dea x

P.S. - I may be a while as my husband has just flooded the bathroom and the water has come through the kitchen ceiling, blowing up the lights etc. :-D

Will be back asap.

Dea Xxx

on her marriage record she says she is born in eastbourne 1878 but on censes records its always sussex but 1878 to 1882 and she is listed as ann light - she never spoke of her parents according to all the family members who are old enough to remember her and we just cant find a birth record her death record was done by her daughter mary but she now has no memory of anything and is in a home and i have been told that they were not sure of her age when she died so they agreed between the family what to put down lol she is buried in roffey all saints church yard in horsham sussex . i would like to know more about my great gran and there must be more info out there somewhere but its so frustrating i have been going round in circles for 10 years now
i really am glad of any new idears or leads or poss births etc i just want to know who she really was
many thanks lorraine

Lorraine,

As Dea asked,could you please write out everything it says on her marriage certificate ? Witnesses and everything!!!!

She certainly doesn't seem to be the Alice Douch from 1881 as SHE was born Alice Flora Gore and goes on to marry James Wright in 1894. They're together in 1901 and 1911.

I hope Dea hasn't electrocuted herself! My goodness!

Maureen

Hi Lorraine,

Firstly - Marriage records in UK never show place of birth yet you say that it says she was born in Eastbourne ???

Can you give the details I requested from the marriage cert please?

Dea x

Hi Maureen , - No - I am O.K.!

You can see the full details on 'Fred' !! ;-)

Dea Xxx

Dea-Thank heavens you have a good sense of humour! And a good pair of wellies....

Glad you're OK.

Moxx

hi dea
i hope you are ok
men lol them and water dont mix
annie douch married henry light on the 12th july 1916 in the register office horsham sussex
she signed her name annie douch he marked with a x
done in the presence of elizabeth ripley (his sister elizabeth light) and her husband thomas ripley
she is listed as a spinster aged 36 he is a bachelor aged 40 both living 146 crawley road horsham
she has no prefession he is a general lab
her dad is john douch a bricklayer deacesed his dad is thomas light also deaseased a general lab what is strange is all the lights family were married at all saints church in roffey but she was done in the registry office ????
but she has children with henry light from 1901 onwards so they were not married when they had 70 percent of there children and my grandads siblings were horrified when they found out lol
i have both the marriage and death cert but they give no other info she did not talk about her family and no one can remember her mums name etc etc so thats not helpful she did lie about her age and she also lied about her childrens ages and when her son my grandad died my mum and sisters thought he was one age and his sons my mums brothers had 2 ages of there own so my mum and sisters got there way and put the age on his death cert and grave and when i found his death record my uncle les was right and he died with the wrong age by 8 years lol my grandad albert light was also unsure when he was born as for all his life he had had 2 birthdays we joked he was like the queen lol he celebrated just before xmas and in the summer he was achually born 7th dec 1913 address is 136 crawley road horsham but on his birth record she has her info annie light mother marked with a cross and he signed his name - so the other way to there marriage record - and she calls herself annie light mother even though she is not married at this time and she is listed as annie light formerly douch in other collum . her death annie light was on the 2nd sept 1954 at 146 crawley road horsham aged 76 a widow of henry light market gardener it was in the presence of her daughter mary grey of 59 comptons lane horsham registered 3 sept 1954 she died of coronary thrombosis , myocardial degeneration and chronis bronchitis .
hope this helps abit on my grandads sisters birth record she is listed as surname daitch - charity light mums name daitch - on record she calls herself annie light formally daitch , i know the surname douch changes but we just cant find her birth record from the info off the childrens births and her marriage and death
any info would be great even if its a lead to check out as we really are stuck
many thanks lorraine