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Hi Vera,

No - not the Tyne and Wear Archives. Due to lack of space the hospital moved a couple of times and changed its name to Princess Mary's maternity Hospital I telephoned direct and was put thru to archives hospital records who I believed may have kept original information.

Good thinking tho! I'll try archives too.

Cheers

Paul

When you say you contacted hospital archives direct, do you mean the Tyne and Wear Archives in Newcastle. They have admission records for the Newcastle Lying Hospital but of course there may be gaps when the fire occured.

Vera

Anything is possible however Im keeping an open mind whilst I search for evidence. I will chase up your suggested marriage link ..let you know how I get on.
'Thank you' and for your kind words too!!

P.

Yeah, lying-in hospitals were prevalent back then, makes me feel more certain that his parents weren't married, despite the birth certificate. My imagination playing overtime again, your grandmother was besotted with James William Spencer, who likely was already married, and she followed him up the country to be with him, and gave birth far away from home in Newcastle, in a women's institution.

I hope your dad died knowing that he had a wonderful son.

Unless someone else has a better idea - come on folks, don't leave me on my own! - I would try the marriage cert of Harry W A Brown as mentioned above, and pray that the address is the one on your dad's birth cert, or even better, that Lillian Rose was a witness, and was a music hall entertainer. Though you haven't actually stated anywhere that she was - it was her supposed husband James William who was one.

My imagination is playing overtime again, but if your grandmother wasn't married, she perhaps had no choice over what to do with her child.
Maybe she felt he was better left in care.

The contact I had on Ancestry has confirmed that the child of James and Lily Spencer is not Dennis. So I think we can forget that family we have been chasing so far.

My Dad passed away 1995. He grew up as an orphan having no recollection of his parents. His experiences of foster care lead him to run away and join the navy in 1938 and returned after the War.
He tried to trace his parents in the 1950s,I guess when he was starting a family back then it was a bus from the midlands down to London, few phones and no computors. He said he tried.
He traced his birth Certificate (the Copy I now have).

I tracked down the birth hospital from the Cert. It was called the
'Lying -in Hospital' built for 'pregnant married Women' there was a seperate charity for Women lying in their own homes as well. There was room for twelve patience who were admitted with a letter of recommendation, a marriage cert and a husband. Ref ;Tyneside life & times. Hospital moved in 1923 and the building became the regional headquaters of the BBC. I checked hospital archives direct but they had a fire and the records were distroyed.
Im shore there must be some link somewhere!
The 1921 Census could shed some light!

I looked for a marriage of one of the siblings of Lillian Rose, hoping there would be one around 1920, but the nearest I can find with any certainty is that of Harry W A Brown to Lily Davis, West Ham (which included Leyton then), Sep 1926, 4A/509.

Given that people didn't move house so frequently by 1920 that cert might just give the same address as the one on your father's birth (though it sounded like a boarding house).

Of the other siblings, Mabel Lydia Brown might not have married as there are several possible death, same with Doris Beatrice, and Alec Ernest doesn't marry till 1938.

Harry Ernest and Lydia Elizabeth don't die until the 1950s, by which time the address could be totally different.

So, if it were me, and money no object :-D I would risk the marriage cert of Harry W.A. Brown - with all those initials it is likely to be the right Harrry, but whether or not his address will prove anything is a chance I would take.

I've researched Jimmy Spencer as a stage name, no luck, but interestingly there is a Lillian Rose coming up on Google who was a pianist in the States. Probably along the wrong track again.

I've also looked at emigrations, nothing concrete.

Despite your dad's birth cert, it seems doubtful whether his parents were ever married. Unless of course, just after your dad's birth, they got a job offer overseas that they couldn't refuse, and dashed off, intending to come back for their little boy, married over there, and never got round to coming back - or maybe died young.

Is you dad still alive? What does he think of all this?

Will reply in a mo, Paul - we have no real proof that the above family is right, only that she has the right name, lived in the right area in 1911 and plays a piano. Here's the marriage of that couple:

Name: BROWN, Harry Ernest
Registration District: Help Hackney
County: London
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 1B
Page No: Help 853

Spouse Lydia Elizabeth Clark.

So, here they are in 1890:

BROWN, Harry Head Married M 23 1868 Sorter
London VIEW
BROWN, Lydia Wife Married F 21 1870
Shoreditch
London VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
1066 Folio:
44 Page:
3 Registration District:
Edmonton

Civil Parish:
Hornsey Municipal Borough:
Hornsey Address:
7, Cowper Road, Hornsey County:
Middlesex

Harry had a steady job - the sort of dad to afford piano lessons!

I have no doubt you will find a birth for Lillian Rose (not looked yet) and the cert will prove she is the child of this couple - but we don't know for sure we have the right girl.

We have to do something with that address she gives on your dad's birth cert. Back shortly - and maybe a few others will chip in ;-)

Info gratefully recieved Meg, thanx.

Could you guide me the best direction you think I should go to establish a firm link/conection. Ive tried to work carefully backwards from from my fathers birth cert . Maybe if I can confirm the address on Lillians birth cert that would help...it will provide other info too!

Paul

Good work, Paul. Looks like the couple in Leeds are not your grandparents.

For other people's benefit:

BROWN, Harry Ernest Head Married M 43 1868 Letter Sorter Islington London VIEW
BROWN, Lydia Elizabeth Wife Married
20 years F 41 1870 Shoreditch London VIEW
BROWN, Mabel Lydia Daughter Single F 17 1894 Stoke Newington London VIEW
BROWN, Harry William Alfred Son Single M 15 1896 Telegraph Messenger Stoke Newington London VIEW
BROWN, Doris Beatrice Daughter F 9 1902 School Stoke Newington London VIEW
BROWN, Alec Ernest Son M 3 1908 Leyton Essex VIEW
BROWN, Lillian Rose Daughter Single F 19 1892 Pianist Stoke Newington London VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
9644 Reference:
RG14PN9644 RG78PN513A RD188 SD9 ED11 SN344

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
North Leyton Enumeration District:
11 Parish:
Low Leyton

Address:
37 Grosvenor Road Leyton County:
Essex

and 1901

BROWN, Harry E Head Married M 33 1868 Letter Sorter G P O
Islington VIEW
BROWN, Lydia Wife Married F 31 1870
Shoreditch VIEW
BROWN, Lilian Daughter Single F 9 1892
S Hornsey VIEW
BROWN, Mabel Daughter Single F 7 1894
S Hornsey VIEW
BROWN, Harry Son Single M 5 1896
Stoke Newington VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
207 Folio:
54 Page:
36 Registration District:
Hackney

Civil Parish:
Stoke Newington Municipal Borough:
Address:
41, Prince George Road, Stoke Newington County:
London

Hi Meg,

Think our messages just crossed at same time -spooky.
Just when I think Ive dug up good link you trump it.
Sometimes I struggle to see the conections...I veryi nterested to
know the name of the child for James and Lily and I would be very happy for you to contact the tree owner if not to much trouble. Thanks for offer.

Paul

Thanks Meg for update and references.

Ive been digging... On 1911 Census household transcript

BROWN LILLIAN ROSE (RG14PN9644 RG78PN513A RD188 SD9 ED11 SN344)

Address

37 GROSVENOR ROAD LEYTON
County
Essex
District
West Ham
Subdistrict
North Leyton
Enumeration District
11
Parish
Low Leyton
It lists Lillian's occupation as Pianist, 19 years old.
This appears another strong possible link, the address
closely matches address on birth cert. Maybe having a
child nines years later she moved back to be near parents
for support!

There is a tree on Ancestry with James and Isabel - who dies in 1917. The tree has a spouse and child for Eleanor, and a third child of James and Isabel, Ralph, b 1911, with a wife and children for him. The living people are all hidden, but I can contact the owner of the tree if you like.

He also has James marrying Lily Brown with one male child - hidden of course.

You would think so, Paul, but my imagination is thinking that maybe James didn't want Lillian to know about some misdemeanour he was involved with in the army, so said he was a seaman, and then an ex-army buddy or a sibling turned up and the truth was out. Okay, probably rubbish.

Yes, it's the census reference.

Freebmd deaths are only complete up to about 1950, with very few yet added after 1960. Alternatives are Ancestry and Find My Past. I don't know what's available on here. There are plenty of likely deaths of a James and Lily Spencer, wouldn't know where to start.

As your father knew nothing about his parents I wonder if you should see if you can trace the children from the first marriage of James to find living relatives who might recall that their grandfather ran off to the music hall?

I had a quick look at Eleanor Spencer - she could have married John Pickles in Bradford in 1930, there is a likely child from this marriage born Leeds and a possible marriage for her. I will PM the details. EDIT probably not right, see next posting. From then it would be a case of locating people on electoral rolls or phone books and contacting them.

It might also be worth getting the marriage certificate of Eleanor Spencer to see what occupation she gives to her father.

There is a death of Isabel Spencer in 1959 in Folkestone, exactly the right age - but I haven't yet seen any connection with Folkestone that might suggest it is her. EDIT, see next.

Can anyone recommend best place to search post 1920 deaths?

Thanks
Paul

Thank you Meg,

I think Lillian would have known the armed forces branch because the 1914-18 war had just finished, it may have been listed on the marriage Cert under rank or profession. If the 1919 marriage cert I have is theirs its odd there son's birth cert just a year later states occupation as Music hall artist, ex army of colchester.(this appears quite specific to mention both)

I agree the first wifes occupation in Music hall is tantilising but inconlusive link, if only the middle names were available.

Is the above RG link from the Census?

Regards
paul

Paul, maybe Lillian Rose wasn't sure which branch of the forces he had been in.

James Spencer and first wife in 1911:

SPENCER, James Head Married M 32 1879 Engine Man Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, Isabel Wife Married
6 years F 28 1883 Dressing Rooms Manageress Pontefract Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, James Son Single M 6 1905 Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, Eleanor Daughter Single F 4 1907 Leeds Yorkshire VIEW

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
26924 Reference:
RG14PN26924 RG78PN1546 RD500 SD1 ED9 SN116

Registration District:
Leeds Sub District:
South East Leeds Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Leeds

Address:
30 and 31-32 St Anns Square Shannon ST County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Interesting occupation of Isabel - in a music hall?

Hi,

Dennis Was born on 7th July 1920 Newcastle upon Tyne.
His birth was registered (in Newcastle)by his mother Lillian Rose Spencer 16th July 1920. Although residence states Grassmere, Colchester Road, Leyton, Essex.


Regards
Paul.

Was Dennis's birth registered by his mother/father - or someone else?

Thanks Maureen,

Yes-I think this is the Lily who married in 1919. Edna Townley listed also appears on James's & Lilly's Marriage cert.
However the occupations dont match my fathers birth cert and without matching middle names I have insufficiant evidence to accept the marriage cert as my Grandparents.

I thought maybe if I could find out when/how they died this would explain why they disappeard!

Regards
Paul

I think this might be the Lily who married in 1919:

1911 census transcription details for: 29 Evanston Row Kirkstall Road Leeds
RG14PN27056 RG78PN1549 RD500 SD4 ED3 SN166

Reg. District: Leeds Sub District: Kirkstall
BROWN, John Head Widower M 65 1846 Dyers Lab Bradford
BROWN, Tom Son Single M 27 1884 Rivetter Leeds
>>>BROWN, Lily Daughter Single F 24 1887 Folder In Printing Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Sam Son In Law Married M 38 1873 Dyers Lab Leeds
TOWNSLEY, S Ann Daughter Married
13 years F 40 1871 Leeds
>>>TOWNSLEY, Edna Daughter Single F 11 1900 School Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Lily Daughter Single F 5 1906 School Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Minnie Daughter Single F 3 1908 Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Ida Daughter Single F 0 (9 MONTHS) 1911 Leeds



I see why you're a little hesitant to claim them as the parents of Dennis!

Maureen