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It seems probable to me that Annie was born in the USA - in spite of what she said.
I found the Ohio's passenger list images online via:
https://www.familysearch.org/s/collection/list#page=1®ion=NORTH_AMERICA
Pennsylvania, Philadelphia Passenger Lists, 1883-1945
004 - v. D, Jan 1, 1884-Jun 23, 1884
The Ohio is on images 44-52 - your guys are:
Image 51 of 894
George is a Lab a=27, Matilda a Wife a=21 - no destination mentioned.
This is unfortunate as PA didn't centralize b.certs until 1906 - before that they were maintained at the county level, and there's scads of counties. It does seem a reasonable guess that his destination was somewhere in PA.
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/birth_certificates/
14121/birth_and_death_events_prior_to_1906/608673
[paste the 2 bits of the URL together]
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Name: George Whittle
Arrival Date: 21 Jan 1884
Age: 27 Years
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Ohio
Port of Arrival: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Last Residence: England
Birthplace: England
Microfilm Roll Number: T840_4
Name: Matilda Whittle
Arrival Date: 21 Jan 1884
Age: 21 Years
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Gender: Female
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Ohio
Port of Arrival: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Last Residence: England
Birthplace: England
Microfilm Roll Number: T840_4
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Vivienne - it sounds like you already have maybe 4 of the 5 passenger lists.
Could you give details of those you have, please.
I'm particularly keen to know what's on the UK --> US one - what was the destination port, and were there any indication of ultimate destination. As you probably know, the US handles BMDs at the state level (like Oz).
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Helen that is their deaths Annie died 28th May 1952 so she was born about 1886 so it was between when they went to USA and when they went to Australia that was why I was trying to find out when they came back from USA..
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you actually only said when you thought Annie was born in your latest post of yesterday. Right from the 1st reply on this thread from Jonesey it has been assumed that Annie was born in 1877 and several people have been looking for her with that date
"Jonesey that is Matilda's family and her sisters, she obviously named her children after them."
You still have not given what age she was on the death certificate.
Would she have been born before they went to the USA or after assuming you have her birthday from the death certificate and the exact date they went to the USA
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lancashireAnn I wasn't the one who said she was born c1877. I realise that information on a death certificate is not necessarily right so was trying to establish where she was born. That is why I was trying to find out when they came back to England from the USA.
I also wondered seeing that they were a family of coal miners how they could afford al the travelling.
Vivienne
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Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1910
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
COMER George Standish Wigan & Leigh ASPEY STND/43/206
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1908
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASPEY Sarah Elizabeth COMER Thomas St. Andrew,Wigan Wigan & Leigh C35/1/275
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Just love George's occupation on the 1901 census, "Old worn out coal miner".
1901:
Name: George Coomber
Age: 69
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Coomber
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Standish with Langtree
Ecclesiastical parish: Shevington St Anne
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Standish
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 30
Piece: 3547
Folio: 111
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
George Coomber 69
Emma Coomber 68
Thomas Coomber 22
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you originally said that Annie was born c1877 which is why we have all been trying to find her in 1881. If she was born 1884/5 and they went to USA in 1884 could she not have been born either at sea or in the USA?
It would not be the first time that the death certificate has given the wrong information. It is only as good as the informant knows. What age was given for Annie on her death certificate?
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You have all been very busy but Annie Whittle is Matilda's daughter with George Whittle born about 1884. George & Matilda married 1884 Many thanks
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Well found mgnv.
The fact that Annie is not shown with the family in 1881 perhaps indicates that she was not Matilda's offspring after all. Perhaps she may have been the illegitimate child of Matilda's older brother who was subsequently "Adopted" by the family.
Posting this just in case you do not have these records:
Name: George Comber
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1904
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 1
1911
COMBER, Emma Head Widow F 78 1833 Somerset Tinsbury
COMBER, Thomas Son Married M 32 1879 Timber Man Below Surface Lancashire Shevington
COMBER, Sarah Elizabeth Daughter- In- Law Married
2 years F 41 1870 Lancashire Standish
COMBER, George Grandson M 1 1910 Lancashire Standish
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
22953 Reference:
RG14PN22953 RG78PN1343 RD458 SD1 ED6 SN41
Registration District:
Wigan Sub District:
Standish Enumeration District:
6 Parish:
Standish with Langtree
Address:
32 Standish Lower Ground Near Wigan Lancashire
Name: Emma Comber
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1911
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 1
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Using the local indexes at: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
In particular,: http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
and http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/
and also using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1884
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WHITTLE George COMBER Matilda St. Wilfred,Standish Wigan & Leigh C28/4/92
Marriage: 1 Jan 1884 St Wilfid, Standish, Lancs.
George Whittle - 27 Miner Bachelor of Shevington
Matilda Comber - 21 Spinster of Standish, Lower Ground
Groom's Father: Peter Whittle, Grocer
Bride's Father: George Comber, Miner
Witness: John Bailey; Emily Comber
Married by Banns by: Alex. Richardson, Minister of the Shevington District
Register: Marriages 1880 - 1900, Page 46, Entry 92
Source: LDS Film 1526141
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WHITTLE Mary Ellen Ashton Wigan & Leigh WHITTLE ASHT/42/388
WHITTLE Mary Ellen Hindley Wigan & Leigh HNDL/130/250
WHITTLE Mary Atherton Wigan & Leigh ATH/78/166
WHITTLE Mary Standish Wigan & Leigh COMBER STND/34/65
If you're outside the UK, and wanted to order Mary's b.cert from the GRO, not Wigan (who don't take credit cards),
then look up in FreeBMD for Wigan & Leigh 1897q1-1898q1 (Lancs BMD often uses year of birth, not of registration).
Here it's easy, as Atherton subdistrict was in Leigh RD back then.
If I'd wanted to get Mary Ellen Whittle born in Hindley, I'ld click on the two page # to see others on page, then look them up in LancsBMD.
One page will be full of Hindley's and the other of Ashton's.
Births Jun 1897 (>99%)
Whittle Mary Wigan 8c 8
Whittle Mary Leigh 8c 325
Births Dec 1897 (>99%)
Whittle Mary Ellen Wigan 8c 182
Whittle Mary Ellen Wigan 8c 129
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1885
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
COMER Emma 2 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/15/193
Maybe?
Burial: 16 Mar 1879 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Emily Whittle -
Age: 2 years
Abode: Standish
Buried by: R. Duncan, Curate
Register: Burials 1878 - 1891, Page 12, Entry 94
Source: LDS Film 1526141
Maybe?
Burial: 10 Dec 1889 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Mary Whittle -
Age: 77 years
Abode: Shevington
Buried by: J. F. Harris, Curate
Register: Burials 1878 - 1891, Page 175, Entry 1398
Source: LDS Film 1526141
1881 Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
George COOMEN Head M Male 49 Bath, Somerset, England Coal Miner
Emma COOMEN Wife M Female 48 Bath, Somerset, England
William COOMEN Son U Male 22 Bath, Somerset, England Coal Miner
Matilda COOMEN Dau U Female 18 Pemberton, Lancashire, England Factory Girl (Cotton)
Charles COOMEN Son U Male 14 Shevington, Lancashire, England Drawer In Pit
Emily COOMEN Daur U Female 10 Shevington, Lancashire, England Scholar
Thomas COOMEN Son U Male 2 Shevington, Lancashire, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling Teasys Houses
Census Place Standish With Langtree, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341899
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3758 / 85
Page Number 17
Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Standish
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Now we know it's Bath:
Bath Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1858 COMER William Clutton Bath HANCOCK CLU/11/245
1856 COMER Anne Clutton Bath HANCOCK CLU/10/310
1854 COMER Mary Jane Clutton Bath HANCOCK CLU/9/376
Bath Marriage indexes for the years: 1853
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HANCOCK Emma COMER George Timsbury, St Mary Bath C88/1/133
Now we've got the mum's MS:
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1878 CORNER Thomas Standish Wigan & Leigh HANCOCK STND/21/34
1870 CORNER Emily Standish Wigan & Leigh HANCOCK STND/15/349
1866 COMER Charles Standish Wigan & Leigh HANCOCK STND/13/214
1862 COMER Matilda Pemberton Wigan & Leigh HANCOCK PEM/19/27
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1883
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
CORNER Emma Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/144/498
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1882
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FISHER Elizabeth CORNER William All Saints,Wigan Wigan & Leigh C33/18/164
Marriage: 8 Jul 1882 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Comer - 24 Collier Bachelor of 216 Woodhouse Lane
Elizabeth Fisher - (X), 23 Chemical worker Spinster of 214 Woodhouse Lane
Groom's Father: George Comer, Collier
Bride's Father: Reuben Fisher, Collier
Witness: James Fisher; Matilda Comer
Married by Banns by: E. Percy Alexander Curate
Register: Marriages 1880 - 1888, Page 82, Entry 164
Source: LDS Film 1885699
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Thanks for your help everyone. I am in Australia so different time zone. I have 2 birth certificates 1 for 1885 mother Martha Abbott father William and 2nd one 1886 mother Ellen Jackson father Dennis. Don't want to keep buying wrong certificates that is why I asked for help from the Wigan Leisure & Culture Trust
Heritage Services
Museum Of Wigan Life
This is the reply
We have found the marriage of George and Matilda married at Standish St Wilfred's on 1st January 1884. Unfortunately we have not been able to find a baptism for Annie Whittle. It may have been that they have moved out of the Lancashire area quite soon after they where married.
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the 2 Annie's of Catherine's - different mmn
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1885
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WHITTLE Annie Hindley Wigan & Leigh ABBOTT HNDL/83/462
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WHITTLE Annie Wigan Wigan & Leigh JACKSON WIG/160/218
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for ref
marriage of george & matilda giving witnesses
Marriage: 1 Jan 1884 St Wilfid, Standish, Lancashire, England
George Whittle - 27 Miner Bachelor of Shevington
Matilda Comber - 21 Spinster of Standish, Lower Ground
Groom's Father: Peter Whittle, Grocer
Bride's Father: George Comber, Miner
Witness: John Bailey; Emily Comber
Married by Banns by: Alex. Richardson, Minister of the Shevington District
Register: Marriages 1880 - 1900, Page 46, Entry 92
Source: LDS Film 1526141
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What about one of these?
Births Jun 1885 (>99%)
Whittle Annie Wigan 8c 79
Births Dec 1886 (>99%)
Whittle Annie Wigan 8c 35
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On her death certificate it says born in Wigan Lancashire
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Annie died in Whangarei on 28th May 1952.
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I have most of that inormation was just trying to establish where Annie was born.
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