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thanks SAFC

Elizabeth Victoria Murcutt (formerly REBBECK)
b 25 Dec 1821
d 15 Nov 1901 (42 Mallard St, Hoxton, London)

Parents;

Father - Benjamin Rebbeck
b 15 Feb 1785 - Frome, Somerset, ENGLAND
d 10 Jan 1851 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, ENGLAND
Christened - 06 Jun 1807 - Frome, Somerset, ENGLAND

Mother - Mary Ann Rebbeck (formerly Whitebread)
b dec 1794 - Clerkenall, London, ENGLAND
d 18 Feb 1877 - Cornwall Road, Brixton Hill, Surry, ENGLAND
Christened - 08 Mar 1795 - St James, Pentonville, Islington, London, ENGLAND

name: Elizabeth Victoria Murcutt
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 27 Oct 1850
baptism/christening place: ST MARY WHITECHAPEL,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND
birth date: 26 Nov 1841
birthplace:
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: John Murcutt
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Elizabeth
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: C00629-9
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 94697, 94698


Births Mar 1842 (>99%)
MURCUTT Elizabeth Victoria Stepney 2 517

Thats cleared a few things up Chris, thank you.

I have now pieced it all together...

I was getting confused due to the amount of Elizabeth's in the chain..

Elizabeth Victoria WALTER (was Murcutt) - Mother
Eliza WALTER - Daughter
Elizabeth Victoria HERBERT (was Walter) - Daughter
Elizabeth HERBERT - Grandaughter

sorted it now thank you. great information.

Now looking for history on the following from this line;

John Walter (senior) - Who was married to Elizabeth Victoria Murcutt
John Murcutt - Father of Elizabeth Victoria Murcutt (also looking for his spouse - Elizabeth's mother)
Emily ??? (Thomas Henry Holyomes spouse) - and her history

Name: Elizabeth Victoria Walter
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Francis Herbert
Spouse Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Dec 1889
Parish: Bethnal Green St Jude
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Walter (Deceased) (Boot Laster)
Spouse Father Name: William Lessitor Herbert
Register Type: Parish Register

(witnesses at 1911 Lily marriage)


Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Walter John 48 Islington 1b 177


Deaths Jun 1909 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
WALTER Elizabeth Victoria 67 Hackney 1b 280


Births Dec 1886 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Walter Lily May Hackney 1b 602

(would say 1891 Census, mistake!)


1871
WALTERS, John Head M 32 1839 Middlesex (Boot Maker)
WALTERS, Elizabeth Wife F 29 1842 Middlesex
WALTERS, Elizabeth Daughter F 4 1867 Middlesex
WALTERS, Eliza F 1 1870 Middlesex
Piece: 468
Folio: 18
Page: 3
Registration District: Shoreditch
Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Municipal Borough:
Address: Goldsmith Grove, St Leonard Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex


1901 (also Herbert Family at 55)
WALTER, Elizabeth V Head Widow F 58 1843
Westminster, London
WALTER, John W Son Single M 29 1872 India Rubber Factory Labourer
Shoreditch, London
WALTER, Lily M Daughter Single F 14 1887 Dyer's Ironer
Hackney, London
Piece: 343
Folio: 32
Page: 55
Registration District: Poplar
Civil Parish: Bow or Stratford-Le-Bow
Municipal Borough:
Address: 55, Trego Road, Bow Or Stratford-Le-Bow
County: London


1911 (address for 1911 Marriage, took place just after Census taken)

HERBERT, Francis Head Married
21 years M 48 1863 India Rubber Mat Maker London Hackney
297 HERBERT, Elizabeth Vic Wife Married F 42 1869 London Bethnal Green
HERBERT, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 20 1891 Dyers Ironer London Hackney
HERBERT, Frank Son Single M 15 1896 Paper Seller London Hackney
HERBERT, Fredrick Thomas Son Single M 13 1898 School London Hackney
HERBERT, Louisa Daughter Single F 11 1900 School London Hackney
HERBERT, Sidney Son Single M 5 1906 School London Hackney
Reference: RG14PN1157 RG78PN38 RD11 SD5 ED18 SN297
Registration District: Hackney
Sub District: South East Hackney
Enumeration District: 18
Parish: St John At Hackney
Address: 12 Chapman Road
County: London


Deaths Dec 1922 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Holyome Lily M 35 Hackney 1b 474



St Mary of Eton Hackney

(above was Church for 1911 Marriage, not Edmonton, Eton on image)


Chris :)

(update 18th)

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Lily May Holyome (and William Henry)
Year: 1921
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hackney
(16, Chapman Road, also 1918, 19, 20)


Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Holyome Ivy M Walter Hackney 1b 964

(do you have above Cert.?, might be same address, seems Lily died 1yr later)


Marriages Sep 1942 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Holyome William H Line Romford 4a 1651
Line Susan Holyome Romford 4a 1651

The story so far;

1860 - Marriage of John Walter to Elizabeth Victoria Murcett (later referred to as Murcutt)

Name: John Walter (Shoe Maker)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Victoria Murcett (Shoe Binder)
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Apr 1860
Parish: Bethnal Green St Jude
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Thomas Walter (Shoe Maker)
Spouse Father Name: John Murcett (Calk Cutter)
Register Type: Parish Register
(address for both, 7, Nelson Street, witnesses, William Kenton, Amelia Walter)


1861 - Census;

WALTER, John Head Married M 22 1839 Shoe Maker
St Giles Cripplegate
WALTER, Elizabeth Wife Married F 19 1842 Shoe Binder
Ratcliff
Piece: 214
Folio: 109
Page: 43
Registration District: East London
Civil Parish: St Giles Cripplegate
Municipal Borough: London
Address: 3, Alfreds Place, St Giles Cripplegate, London
County: London

1881 - Birth of Lily May (Mary) Walter

No birth record found yet but based on all other data it must be 1881.


1886 - Baptism of Lily May (Mary) Walter

Name: Lily Mary Walter
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 Nov 1886
Father's Name: John Walter (Boot Laster)
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Victoria Walter
Parish or Poor Law Union: Hackney Wick
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers
(address, 27, Wick Road)


1891 - Census; Elizabeth has re-married and become 'WOOD', Her daughter 'Lily Mary WALTER' is still with her, and her Father 'John MURCUTT' is staying with them.

WOOD, David J Head Married M 53 1838 Bailiff
London
WOOD, Elizabeth Wife Married F 46 1845
Westminster, London
WOOD, John Son Single M 19 1872 Cabinet Maker
Shoreditch, London
MURCUTT, John Boarder Widower M 79 1812 Cork Cutter
Shoreditch, London
WALTER, Lilley M Visitor F 10 1881
Hackney, London
HERBERT, Francis Visitor Married M 28 1863 Factory Labourer
Homerton, London
HERBERT, Elizabeth V Visitor Married F 24 1867
Shoreditch, London
HERBERT, Elizabeth Visitor F 0 (3M) 1891
Hackney, London
Piece: 196
Folio: 18
Page: 29
Registration District: Hackney
Civil Parish: Hackney
Municipal Borough:
Address: 11, Chalgrove Road, Hackney
County: London


1889 - Baptism - William Robert Holyome

Name: William Robert Holyome
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1889
Baptism Date: 26 Jun 1889
Father's Name: Thomas Henry Holyome ***********Carman
Mother's name: Emily Holyome
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Peter
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers
Born 7th JUNE



1901 - Census - William Robert Holyome with his parents Thomas and Emily HOLYOME;

Name: William Holyome
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Holyome
Mother's name: Emily Holyome
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
County/Island: London

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 17

Thomas Holyome 42
Emily Holyome 40
Thomas Holyome 18
George Holyome 16
Emily Holyome 14
William Holyome 11



1911 - Census - William still with his parents just before he married;

Name: William Holyme "Holyome on the image"
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bethnal Green
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 16 Casket Street, Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: POLISHER
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Registration District Number: 17
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Piece: 01449
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Holyme 50 ---Car Man
Emily Holyme 50
George Holyme 26
William Holyme 21
Jane Smith 39
George Smith 12
Laurence Smith 6


1911 - Marriage - Lily Mary Walter and William Henry (Robert) Holyome

Name: William Henry Holyome
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Spouse Name: Lily Mary Walter
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 16 Apr 1911
Parish: Hackney Wick
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Thomas Holyome
Spouse Father Name: John Walter
Register Type: Parish Register


1921 - Birth - Ivy May Holyome


Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holyome Ivy M Walter Hackney 1b 964



1962 - Death - William Robert (was Henry) Holyome

Name: William R Holyome
Birth Date: abt 1889
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1962
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Edmonton

Hmmm
the 1891 census is confusing... the names all seem to link..
Elizabeth seems to have re-married to become WOOD, her daughter from her first marriage is there 'Lily Walter' however the age of Lily seems wrong, shown as aged 10... whereas the previous information from her wedding cert would indicate she was born in 1886.

John Murcutt (or should it be Murcitt) is there too... Elizabeths father?

1891
WOOD, David J Head Married M 53 1838 Bailiff
London
WOOD, Elizabeth Wife Married F 46 1845
Westminster, London
WOOD, John Son Single M 19 1872 Cabinet Maker
Shoreditch, London
MURCUTT, John Boarder Widower M 79 1812 Cork Cutter
Shoreditch, London
WALTER, Lilley M Visitor F 10 1881
Hackney, London
HERBERT, Francis Visitor Married M 28 1863 Factory Labourer
Homerton, London
HERBERT, Elizabeth V Visitor Married F 24 1867
Shoreditch, London
HERBERT, Elizabeth Visitor F 0 (3M) 1891
Hackney, London
Piece: 196
Folio: 18
Page: 29
Registration District: Hackney
Civil Parish: Hackney
Municipal Borough:
Address: 11, Chalgrove Road, Hackney
County: London

Chris :)

Marriages Jun 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1c 643
John Walter
Bethnal Gn

Name: John Walter (Shoe Maker)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Victoria Murcett (Shoe Binder)
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Apr 1860
Parish: Bethnal Green St Jude
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Thomas Walter (Shoe Maker)
Spouse Father Name: John Murcett (Calk Cutter)
Register Type: Parish Register
(address for both, 7, Nelson Street, witnesses, William Kenton, Amelia Walter)

Chris :)

(might not be easy, Murcett!)


1861
WALTER, John Head Married M 22 1839 Shoe Maker
St Giles Cripplegate
WALTER, Elizabeth Wife Married F 19 1842 Shoe Binder
Ratcliff
Piece: 214
Folio: 109
Page: 43
Registration District: East London
Civil Parish: St Giles Cripplegate
Municipal Borough: London
Address: 3, Alfreds Place, St Giles Cripplegate, London
County: London


Marriages Jun 1860 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Murcett* Elizabeth Victoria Bethnal Gn 1c 643
Walter John Bethnal Gn 1c 643

Births Jun 1867 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1c 204

Elizabeth Victoria Walter

Shoreditch

She would only be 19 ish when she had a child...

UPDATE: I am stupid... she wouldnt be a Walter at birth... DOH

Hi Chris..... I am a pain arent I.... still its better than the Sheffield Whites..

Just you wait... my paternal gradmother was a White before she married so another line of Whites to search... :-D

The post above... could be lily Mary.... seems right.

So at least we now have Elizabeth Victoria Walter to search... she is the one we believe is from Italian stock...

Name: Lily May Walter
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 Nov 1886
Father's Name: John Walter (Boot Laster)
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Victoria Walter
Parish or Poor Law Union: Hackney Wick
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers
(address, 27, Wick Road)

Chris :)


Births Dec 1886 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
Walter Lily May Hackney 1b 602

Further update, from the grand-daughter of William Holyome and Lilly Walter;

Mum (Ivy May Holyome) used to tell us about her grandmother (probably the one we think is of Italian decent) that she chased her husband with a carving knife but somehow had him put into an asylum (should have been her put away by the sounds of it).
Her grandmother then had a manfriend who lived with her but according to mum he wasn't allowed out of the bedroom, presumably because of the shame of living with a man and not being married. She obviously hadnt divorced her first husband who was put away.

My grandfather used to deliver fuel by horse and cart and one of the places he delivered to was the asylum. One day he and another man were delivering fuel and my grandad was talking to one of the inmates when his friend asked him if he knew this inmate and my grandfather said yes it was his dad. I dont know if he visited him from time to time or if he was just delivering the fuel and recognised his father.

Wonder where this will lead us....

UPDATE: all of this was in London....

also, Lily Mary Walter, may have an Italian link in her history...... her family are conviced they are from Italian decent...

update on this thread;

Married in the Parish Church of St. mary of Etm (probably short for Edmonton), Middlesex
April 16th, 1911
William Henry Holyome aged 26, polisher, Father's name : Thomas Holyome, Carman
Residence: 12 Chapman Road
Lily May Walter aged 24, no profession, Father's name : John Walter, deceased
Residence: 12 Chapman Road
Witnesses: Francis Herbert and Elizabeth Herbert

His death cert reads William Robert Holyome died 16th Sept 1962

According to his living relative (grand-daughter), she recalls the confusion where William always thought his middle name was Henry, however the family did have his birth cert at one point and corrected him by confirming it was actually Robert, which was used on his death cert. So it is the same person.

Also, he also married again;
His second marriage was to Susan Line on the 12th Sept 1942 at the registry office in the district of Romford, county of Essex

His age then was 56 and Susan was 50
His address at that time was 24 Powell Gardens , Dagenham
And Susan's was 500 Heathway, Dagenham

His father was Thomas Henry Holyome (deceased and he was a carman upholsterers)
Susan's father was William Hammond (deceased, general labourer)
Witnesses were : Joseph James Trinder and Lillian Reynolds

I noticed on an earlier post there is a reference to a Joyce 'S' Holyome... this could be Susan using her middle name, I am having her cert checked by relative.

Also, it is known that Susan had 12 children... so the name 'Line' could be a previous marriage because her birth certificate shows she was a Hammond;

Susan's birth cert reads:
Registration District: Stepney, birth in the sub district of Ratcliff in the county of London

Date of birth 2nd Dec 1891 at 10 Dorset Street
Father: William Hammond - bricklayer, labourer
Mother: Susan Hammond formerly Fletcher

looking for information on Lily Mary Walter b1886

Hi Flick

Yes I believe he did marry again.... someone named Susan we believe.

I am doing all of this remotely, once home I will invest in the certs to prove things out... this is to give the clearest options before spending too much on certs.

Thank you

Deaths Dec 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holyome Lily M 35 Hackney 1b 474


Did William marry again?

Buying his death cert might prove helpful - for the informant's details

As per my earlier message, Ivy's marriage cert will include her father's name......as she knew it.

I offered a possible explanation for the age quoted by William on his marriage cert.

It may also be that he didn't like Robert as a name, and preferred to use Henry.

It's perfectly legal to call onself whatever one chooses, as long as no intent to deceive or defraud is involved