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Hi Tracey,

I think it might be tricky to find the other two children. It seems there was probably a different set of children born to John and Louisa being baptised in the Tower Hamlets borough at the same time as your family were living in Bromley. It looks as if it would be this family in 1901:

Name: John Phillips
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Phillips
Gender: Male
Where born: Poplar, London, England

Civil parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Stratford
ED, institution, or vessel: 6

Household schedule number: 85
Piece: 1563
Folio: 11
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
John Phillips 36 Carman b Poplar
Louisa Phillips 36 Machinist b Limehouse
Edward Phillips 16 Railway guard b Stepney
Frederick Phillips 15 Railway guard b Stepney
William Phillips 13 Confectioners' guard b Stepney
John Phillips 7 b Stepney
Eleanor Phillips 5 b Limehouse
Jonathan Sapsford 68 (grandfather)
Sarah Newell 21 (niece)

Baptisms for all the above five children can be found on the Metropolitan Archives with father as a Lamp cleaner at Edward's baptism, but carman thereafter - including William Herbert born 11 December 1887 and baptised 1 January 1888. Since the 1891 census shows your family's William as two and a half in April 1891, the best fit birth registration in Poplar seems to be William Phillips, September 1888.

For your family, Alice May's is the only baptism I can locate (father wool broker), in Bromley parish in 1886 (which seems confirmed by a likely marriage on 25 December 1906 to Thomas Hall and a similar marriage exactly two years earlier, in 1904, between Lily Phillips and Henry Webb?)

Looking at the gap between Alice May and Lily, there might have been another child born around 1884? Restricting a search of the Poplar death registrations to those Phi*li*ps falling between 1883 and 1891 but born 1883-1885 identifies 14 children, of which 7 look as if they can be matched to baptisms to other parents in the Tower Hamlets district. The remaining 7 are:

Albert Victor
Ernest Arthur
Frederick Charles
John
Elizabeth Florence
Albert Edward
Maude

None of these can be ruled out by overlap with other surviving children's names; if I was asked to guess one to try by buying the certificate, I'd go with John; it is your family's father's name; this might be the first boy; and the death is registered in the Sept quarter of 1885, about ten years before the surviving John was born.

Is Mabel the child you think had died by 1911? There is a death registration that might fit in the September quarter of 1891.

There might also have been a child who was born after Harry but before 1911. However, there are around 15 birth registrations of Phi*li*ps each year at that point in the Poplar district, and no way to narrow it down except by cross-checking with any baptisms (not everyone baptised their children).

It is going to need some substantial work to find all 11 children.

It might be worth buying both the Poplar death certificates that you have found for Louisa Phillips; the informant's name might match up with one of her children. It might be more straightforward to buy direct from the local registry office than from the general register office.

Bear in mind, though, that she might have moved out of the Poplar district after 1911.

There is a marriage for a Phoebe Sarah Ellis to Wiliam Ingrey in February 1880 at Poplar parish church; Phoebe's father is noted as George Ellis, engineer, but the male witness (the one who gave her away?) is John Phillips. The couple are in Bromley in 1891; the census states that Phoebe was also born in Turkey in 1859. Were Phoebe and Louisa twins? There is a death registration in the Poplar district for Phoebe S Ingrey in the April-June quarter 1921, confirming birth year believed to be 1859.

Have you found all the Phillips children named on the 81-1901 census' on the 1911 census? If married, names of their children may give clues to siblings who died.
? Louisa is Mrs Duncan Young with Maude, Duncan, May, Elsie and Sidney.
? Lily is Mrs Henry Webb with Henry William/ Edwin Philip and Lily Maria
Ada, Alice and William elude me at the moment. I believe Mabel has died

I agree with Ivy that the gap between Lily's Birth registration Dec 1881 and Alice's in Jun 1886 is a chance for (2 or even 3 or 4 - her first three are yearly!) children to be born and as Louisa is only 40 in 1901 there is a chance for children after that.

You might have to make do with the ones you have found on the census

Hi Stuart/Tracey,

From Stuart's posting, Maude, as Louisa's first child, suggests that the death ergistration for Maude in 1885 in Poplar might also be a reasonable one to try...

Tracey,

Is this the 1881 census entry you mentioned?

Name: Walter Ellis
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Constantinople Bs

Civil parish: St Leonard Bromley
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 11 Knapp R
Occupation: Boiler Maker Apprentice

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 19

Piece: 498
Folio: 28
Page Number: 49
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Moyer 37
Phoebe Moyer 47
Walter Ellis 19

1871 census shows the following Ellis's born Turkey
Elizabeth 1851 with her cousin in Islington, London, Middx
James 1859, Lucy H 1857 brother and sister, mother Sarah in West HAm, Essex
1881 - James there with Mum in West Ham, Essex, presume girls married - next child on census born 1862 London for time frame of travel Turkey to London)
1891 - only a George Ellis b 1858 MArine Engineer (living in Lancs)
1901 - a Laura Ellis b 1863 Constantinople in Wandsworth, London but Ellis is her married name
1911 - JAmes John Alfred Ellis b 1859 Turkey in Steyning, Sussex HAirdresser

Surely too much of a coincidence!

Hi Stuart, so we now have a third 1859 birth in Turkey? But mum Sarah rather than Phoebe? I'm very confused...

Meanwhile, if we are trying to track down the Phoebe with Charles Moy(er), it seems the surname may be Moyce, and she would have died between 1891 and 1911 (1891 and 1911 show Charles Moyce, boiler maker in Bromley):

1891:
Name Age
Charles Moyce 47
Phoebe Moyce 53
Class: RG12; Piece: 322; Folio 61; Page 8

1911:
Charles Moyce 68
Class: RG14; Piece: 01686

So this death registration would fit:

Phoebe Moyce abt 1831 Oct-Nov-Dec 1903 Poplar London

Hi Stuart,

I think I have the Turkish births a bit straighter in my mind now:

1. Fordham, Cambs links:

1861, George Ellis, grandson, age 8 (b approx 1853 in Turkey) living there with grandmother Elizabeth Pryke (b approx 1801) and unmarried uncle and aunt b approx 1833 and 1839.

1847, marriage in Newmarket regn district, Sarah Ann Pryke to James Ellis

1871 census, Sarah A Ellis in West Ham, b approx 1828 in Fordham; also with her in West Ham are Lucy H b approx 1857 in Turkey and James b approx 1859 in Turkey; also Robert and Florence b Middlesex approx 1862 and 1870 respectively. (James b 1859 Turkey per 1871 census also appears in 1881 and 1901 census)

1891 Lancashire census George Ellis b approx 1858 possibly same as George Ellis in Fordham in 1861? Note 5 year age difference.

So are we perhaps looking at two families, that of James and Sarah Ellis and that of George and Phoebe Ellis; and possibly James and George might be brothers?

2. Consulate births are reported as 5 year intervals and the following are Constantinople registrations:

1855-1859: Phoebe Sarah Ellis
1860-1865: Elizabeth Hannah Ellis/Louisa Ellis/Walter Ellis
1871-1875: Frederick Herbert Ellis

So possibly the 1871 census entry for Elizabeth Ellis (b Turkey "Furkey" in 1851) also belongs to James and Sarah Ellis; but the Smith cousin still to link.

3. 1911 census Walter Ellis b Turkey approx 1870; (note 8 year age difference to Walter Elis on 1881 census b approx 1862) - holds Turkish nationality rather than British nationality via his parents, so possibly not related to either of the above families.

Returning to Phoebe, to locate her in 1901:

Name: Phoebe Mayer
Age: 68
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles Mayer
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, London, England

Civil parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: All Hallows Bow Common
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 38

Household schedule number: 17
Piece: 350
Folio: 6
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Mayer 38 (the handwriting is not clear, but is probably closer to Charles Moyce, age 58, boilermaker)
Phoebe Mayer 68

In 1841 at Fordham,( the transcription thinks!) I've found a Pryke family. Won't copy the census, you'll see what I mean if you look. Here is the bit that matters
John Pryke 54 1787 Grocer All born Cambridgeshire
Elizabeth Pryke 40 1801
SArah Pryke 13 1828 ********* ? the Sarah who married JAmes Ellis
Caroline Pryke 11 1830 - only baptism i can find on F. Search
Emma Pryke 9 1832
Harriett Pryke 2 1839
Eliza Pryke 5 1836
Jane Pryke 3 1838
Robert Pryke 2 1839
Maria Pryke 0 (1 month)

There are various other Pryke families in Fordham
Matthew 35 1806 and ???san age 30 with 5 children age 13 -2 (names unclear)

Samuel 55 1786, Frances 80 1761 and Samuel 20 1821

Could Frances be Mother to John and Samuel and outside chance of MAtthew

1861 - Fordham Ring of Bells Public House and Grocers Shop (AS PER IVY)
Elizabeth Byre (Pryke - mis trans reported) 1801 Beer Retailer and Grocer
Harriett 28 1833
Robert 22 1839
George Ellis 8 1853 Grandson b Turkey

It's getting late - what am I saying??
1841 links SArah and Robert to Elizabeth, 1861 Elizabeth to Robert and George then 1871 SArah, now Ellis, has a child Robert. Tenuous??? And it's not the Ellis'

Bed calls, will see in the morning whats happened overnight - if anything