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This one looks possible too:

Name: Adelaide Maud Harris
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1886
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 432 (click to see others on page)

Tree on Ancestry has Dorothy Adelaide Davis marrying Neil MacLeod. I have contacted the person, no activity for 6 months, so not hopeful.

Birth and marriage of Dorothy:

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Dorothy A Davis Name: Dorothy A Davis
Mother's Maiden Surname: Harris
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1920
Registration district: Hampstead
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 1011 (click to see others on page)

Name: Dorothy A Davis
Spouse Surname: Mcleod
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1938
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 1574
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Child of the pair:

Name: Margaret H Mcleod
Mother's Maiden Surname: Davis
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1938
Registration district: Hampstead
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 702 (click to see others on page)

What do you think? Worth a cert?

Margaret

Not sure how this is going help with the link to Ellen and Roseanna and eliminate the other family (John and Matilda).

Perhaps Adelaide Maud's birth cert would be more useful and give some clues about Ellen (Peat).

Is it possible I wonder that Ellen started off as a Harris ie sister of Roseanna, married a Peat and then either married or took the name of James Harris (Butler).

I note that in 1881 the Ellen living with brother in Cheltenham was single but James Harris, Butler was married.

Just some thoughts.

Vera

Thing is Vera, we have homed in on the Ellen in Cheltenham as being the right Ellen cos she is with what seems to be the son of John and Matilda. But is it the right Ellen?

The James Harris, butler, has become a clerk on the marriage of his daughters Maud and Kathleen Mary on the same date.

My friend has had contact with the grand-daughter of Kathleen Mary, who sadly knows nothing of the history.

Lateral thinking is needed, and I am not good at it. Anyone else good at it?

Margaret

Grand-daughter of Dorothy Adelaide McLeod has been in touch. She believes there was "something fishy" about Dorothy's grandmother, but has no idea what, and no-one living to ask.

My friend has sent for the birth of Maud Adelaide/Adelaide Maud and death of Ellen Harris (two possibles, started with one). Unless that death cert is particularly interesting, there will still be nothing to connect Ellen Harris, nee Peat, to Roseanna Harris.

Despair!

Margaret

All relevant certs have been sent for. We await a revelation!

Margaret

Hi Meg
Been having a little look around since you first posted. I thought it interesting that both Ellen and Rosanna were specific about being born at Stoke Works but it doesn't seem to exist as a place name in 1861 when they were very young so I thought maybe they just remembered living there as children. It was quite a small place built around a salt works. Googling I found a couple of useful pointers. One is a picture showing the canal and school and gives a little bit of history:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tudorbarlow/2180355617/

The other is a message on a family history forum and mentions nearby places called Causeway Meadows and Sagebury Terrace.

http://www.bromsgrovebmsgh.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=7&func=view&catid=7&id=101

Anyway on to the 1881 census I wonder if this is them, both their occupations say Cook.

Name: Rose Harris
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Stoke Works, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Broughton in Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 88 George Street

Occupation: Domestic Serv Cook
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Broughton
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Piece: 3955
Folio: 98
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Fletcher 48
Mary Agnes Fletcher 25
James Robinson Fletcher 20
Kate Fletcher 18
Mary Reynolds Jones 28
Rose Harris 21<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Alice Hammond 18


1881 England Census about Ellen Harris
Name: Ellen Harris
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Stoke Works, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Edgbaston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street Address: 101 Harborne Rd


Occupation: Cook
Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration district: Edgbaston
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2956
Folio: 99
Page Number: 60
Household Members:
Name Age
James R. Holliday 40
Elizabeth Phillips 22
Ellen Harris 28<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Back in a mo with earlier census'

Julie

Earlier census' showing the family of Peter and Sarah Harris. No Ellen but I wondered if she was Esther or Harriet in 1861?



1851 England Census
Name: Peter Harris
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Harris
Where born: Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Dodderhill
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Claines
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Household schedule number: 70
Piece: 2046
Folio: 428
Page Number: 19

Peter Harris 34
Sarah Harris 26
William Harris 12
George Harris 8
Sarah Harris 6
Mary Ann Harris 4
Emma Harris 2



1861 England Census
Name: Peter Harris
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Dodderhill
Ecclesiastical parish: Worcester
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Droitwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 124
Piece: 2112
Folio: 65
Page Number: 28

Peter Harris 43
Sarah Harris 37
William Harris 22
Harriet Harris 10
Esther Harris 7
Thomas Harris 5
Rosanna Harris 2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


1871 England Census
Name: Peter Harris
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Harris
Where born: Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Dodderhill
Ecclesiastical parish: Worcester
Town: Causeway Meadow <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Droitwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 167
Piece: 3070
Folio: 68
Page Number: 28

Peter Harris 54
Sarah Harris 46
George Harris 29
Thomas Harris 14
Rosanna Harris 12<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Frederick Harris 10
Louisa Harris 6
Laura Harris 3

Edit in1861 the 3 sister's place of birth is Dodderhill. In 1871 Rosanna's place of birth is Causeway Meadows.

Back in another mo.....

Julie

1881 England Census
Name: Peter Harris
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Harris
Where born: Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Dodderhill
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street Address: 49 Sagebury Terrace Shaw Lane <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Lab
Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Droitwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Piece: 2937
Folio: 92
Page Number: 30

Peter Harris 64
Sarah Harris 56
Frederick Harris 19



1891 England Census
Name: Peter Harris
Age: 75
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Spouse's Name: Sarah Harris
Where born: Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Dodderhill
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary de Wych
Town: Stoke Works <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Droitwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2343
Folio: 162
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Peter Harris 75
Sarah Harris 66
James Bennett 67 Lodger

Jooleh, thanks for all that work. Some of it it possible, and all of it is worth considering. I will pass it on to my friend.

At the moment she is awaiting the death cert of Ellen Harris, in the hope that it will confirm or deny something.It might be the wrong Ellen Harris, ot course.

Best wishes

Margaret

Just to update. 3 death certs of Ellen Harris are all wrong.

London 1920 (2) and 1925.

My friend is a good researcher, like you lot, she is hitting a great big brick wall. Her gg grandmother Roseanna Harris was reported as dead by her sister Ellen Harris. Roseanna was married to Abraham Oughton. in America, the marriage record did not name a father. Ellen Harris is supposedly Ellen Peat who married (or didn't) James Harris. They have two daughters, both with mother's maiden name Peat. They all live at the same address that Ellen lived at when she reported her sister Roseanna's death.

I don't get it at all.

Anybody any more ideas please.

Only one I have had is this death:

Name: Ellen Harris
Birth Date: abt 1857
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1929
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Coventry
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 633

Assuming that she went home to die.

Margaret

Jooleh

Stoke Works doesn't exist as a place. It is just a salt mine, as you say. My friend lives in the area, she knows it well.

???

Births Sep 1851 Harris Ellen Droitwich 18 257

Births Sep 1856 Harris Thomas Droitwich 6c 332
Harris Thomas Droitwich 6c 332b

Co-incidence or could Thomas have been a twin?

Births Sep 1856 Harris Emma Droitwich 6c 332
Harris Emma Droitwich 6c 332b

Births Jun 1859 HARRIS Rosanna Droitwich 6c 363


From the census that Julie posted above, Sarah doesn't look old enough to be the mother of William and George. I am wondering if that is a second marriage for Peter?

There is this birth in Worcestershire for an Ellen Peat.

Births Mar 1850 Peat Ellen Kings Norton 18 4_4


Could she have been born to Sarah before she married Peter and actually be a half sister of Rosanna?

I don't see a death for that Ellen and I am not picking her up on later census. Perhaps someone else can.

Hi Meg
Have you seen this:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1282427

You might be able to do some cross referencing with Dianne to rule this family in or out.

Julie

Dear all

Life has passed in a blur since I last read these posts. Was very interested in the Peter and Sarah parents that Jooleh found, Dodderhill (according to the link she gave me to Dianne's thread) is right next to Stoke Works, but although Rosanna looks okay (and has a brother Frederick, as did our Rosanna have a son Frederick), no-one to match Ellen.

Looks likely that Peter and Sarah married in 1842 (either Sarah Smith, Droitwich or Sarah Roberts, Pershore), the first is most likely. Son William Harris b 1839 is not with a suitable Sarah Smith or Roberts in 1841, nor with Peter Harris who appears to be living alone. So he is a mystery. Of course, Peter and Sarah might never have married at all.

Esther could be Ellen (Ellen gives her birth date anything from 1852 to 1859), I can't find a suitable birth for Esther, but she's Hester, servant in Dodderhill, in 1871, and possibly married in 1874 as Esther.

If there were some sliver of hope that one of these people might be Ellen, my friend will get certificates, but so far there isn't.

I'm not posting any more right now, off to eat.

Your help is much appreciated, but I think we've hit a dead end - unless anyone disagrees? It is not something I've experienced in my own research, not being able to find the parents of someone born as late as 1859, it's so frustrating.

Thanks to Jooleh and Rootgatherer. I think we are getting somewhere.

A previously-active researcher on here has been pressed into action privately, and has submitted ideas and comments on all the above.

She has found the deaths in the USA of several members of the Tibbles family (Jesse Tibbles married a Rose Anna Harris) and virtually proved that HIS Rosanna was the daughter of John Harris and Matilda Maries, as they had a son William Maries Harries, who died in the USA. So we can forget John and Matilda's lot.

She liked Peter and Sarah Harris and discovered that Harriet Harris b 1851 was baptised Harriet ELLEN Harris in 1856. No worry about 1856, cos her siblings Esther and Thomas were baptised the same day (FamilySearch). This Harriet ELLEN and little sister Rosanna tick a lot more boxes than the previous family we homed in on. No proof, but much more likely. And of course, the Ellen Harris registered 1851 could be the one.

I do not believe that Harriet/Ellen Harris married. More likely the father of her children was somebody (James?) Peat, but she wanted them registered as Harris, so swapped the surnames. Or she simply made up the name Peat. And made up James Harris too.

So, now onto Peter Harris and his wife Sarah.

First born is William, 1840. He is on Jooleh's 1851 census above, where she suggests that Sarah is too young to have been William's mother. Yes, she would have been very young, but not impossible. Baptism of William from FamilySearch is on 1/1/1840 Stoke Prior.

So, onto parents Peter and Sarah. Jooleh has them in 1851 onwards. I've found many of the children's baptisms, to Peter and Sarah. But who is Sarah?

William Harris in 1841:

1841 England Census
about Eliza Partridge Name: Eliza Partridge
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Dodderhill
Hundred: Droitwich
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Droitwich
Sub-registration district: Droitwich
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1207
Book: 2
Folio: 20
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
John Partridge 40
Mary Partridge 40
Eliza Partridge 16
Mary Partridge 14
Jane Partridge 12
Henry Partridge 9
Harriott Partridge 7
Emma Partridge 4
William Harry 1 - William Harris on original
William Will 20
Susan Will 40

Made me wonder if William was the son of Eliza.

Marriage of Peter Harris to Eliza Partridge is Sep 1842, Droitwich, 18/271. But not to Sarah. However, Eliza is born 1825, of the right age on later censuses to be Sarah - so is she Sarah? John and Mary DID have a daughter Sarah baptised in 1820, but maybe she died, and Eliza baptised 1825 was given her name within the family.

What do you think?

Maybe William's birth cert is one to go for. Of course, there are two possibles, wouldn't it be the case? Given the baptism in Jan 1840, he must be the one born Dec 1838, Droitwich 18/219. So he was actually 2 at the 1841 census, but it would look bad if his mother was only 16 and her son was 2.

Can't thank everyone enough. At least we have discounted the wrong family, so next best guess is looking good.

Love

Margaret

Dear Margaret,
im related through marriage on the harris side of the family Regards michelle

Nope, Eliza Partridge married Thomas Harrison. Thomas Harrison doesn't appear on Freebmd, nor does Sarah Smith - who I reckon married Peter Harris. They are on FMP.

Here's the Harrisons in 1851, and 1861, proving the point:

HARRISON, Thomas Head Married M 28 1823 Black Smith Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISON, Eliza Wife Married F 26 1825 Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISON, Walter Son M 8 1843 Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISON, Henry Son M 4 1847 Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISON, Emma Daughter F 1 1850 Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

________________________________________
Piece:
2046 Folio:
465 Page:
10 Registration District:
Droitwich

Civil Parish:
Inliberties Municipal Borough:
Droitwich Address:
Vines Lane, Inliberties, Droitwich County:
Worcestershire


PARTRIDGE, John Head Married M 65 1796 Salt Basket Maker Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

PARTRIDGE, Mary Wife Married F 68 1793 Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISSON, Walter Grandson Unmarried M 18 1843 Pansmith Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISSON, Harriet Granddaughter F 9 1852 Scholar Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

HARRISSON, Mary Granddaughter F 5 1856 Scholar Droitwich
Worcestershire VIEW

________________________________________
Piece:
2111 Folio:
75 Page:
11 Registration District:
Droitwich

Civil Parish:
In Liberties Municipal Borough:
Droitwich Address:
Vines Lane, In Liberties, Droitwich County:
Worcestershire

I now think the William Harris in 1841 looks more like William Carr on FMP, so he was a red herring.

The clue is of course that both Rosanna and Ellen put Stoke or Stoke Works as their place of birth, so I believe that Peter Harris 1817 and Sarah b 1825 are their parents. Peter was a salt loader, maybe 'butler' seemed more refined.

Happy hunting!

Stoke Works certainly did exist as a village. The main part of the village consisted of a row of 56 homes, called Sagebury Terrace, built by John Corbett, the owner of the nearby salt works. It was a quaint little village because half of it was in the parish of Stoke Prior and the other half in the parish of Dodderhill. The church of Dodderhill is in Droitwich and the parish extended to half of Stoke Works. Later John Corbett had the church of St Mary de Wych built between Stoke Works and the town of Wychbold. In the early records you will note that the homes in Sagebury Terrace will say Shaw Lane, Dodderhill and not Stoke Works. Causeway Meadows was a group of homes between Stoke Works and St Mary's. They have long since been torn down and only the pub, The Bowling Green remains. The houses in Sagebury Terrace were pulled down in the 1970's, I believe, and the area was taken over by Stoke Prior. Even the still existing Stoke Works School is now called Stoke Prior School.

Peter and Sarah Harris did, as the records say, live at 49 Sagebury Terrace in 1881 after they left Causeway Meadows. My father was born in that same house in 1901 and I was born there in 1943.

I'm rather nostalgic about the place, though as a village it was anything but pretty.