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Hi Kucinta

In fact, I just C&P'd the pm that Terry had sent to me ... he'd put it together.

But I did know that you had found the marriage.


Sorry for not making that clear!



Thank you ...... I think I like Edward b 1788 in Strood much better than the one born in 1796.


Now to wait and see what Terry thinks.





sylvia

Belated reply to Sylvia - I deleted the message because I realised you HAD spoted I'd posted the marriage of Edward and Catherine - and had then popped off to bed without realising you'd already seen and answered my message.

I hadn't meant to start leaving holes in the thread :-(

You've certainly done Terence proud! :-D

It seems that several of the Edward/Elizabeth children died young


England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991

Sophia Jane Butcher
burial: 12 Dec 1793 Strood,? Kent,? England


Harriett Butcher
burial: 15 Jan 1797 Strood,? Kent,? England


William Butcher
burial: 09 Nov 1805 Strood,? Kent,? England


George Butcher
burial: 09 Jan 1803 Strood,? Kent,? England


Matilda Butcher
burial: 19 Nov 1802 Strood,? Kent,? England



Again, you need to check these out very carefully ................ there is nothing on the familysearch entries to determine whether they really are the children of this couple. Butcher seems to be a very common name in that area!!!



sylvia

This looks like Joseph Butcher baptized 1796

1841 Census

Name: Joseph Butcher
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Gender: Male
Where born: Kent, England

Civil parish: Strood
Hundred: Shamwell
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: North Aylesford
Sub-registration district: Strood

Joseph Butcher 45 Farmer
Martha Butcher 45
Joseph Butcher 15
Elizabeth Butcher 13

Address:- Reed Farm



sylvia

Children of Edward Butcher and wife Elizabeth, baptised in Strood


Historical Records

Edward Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 17 Aug 1788 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizabeth


William Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 30 Oct 1791 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizabeth


Harriot Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 16 Jun 1793 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizabeth


Joseph Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 22 May 1796 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizabeth


Sophia Jane Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 03 Jan 1790 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edwd. Butcher,? Elizabeth


Hannah Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 13 Nov 1798 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizh.


George Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 14 Sep 1800 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Eliz.



Matilda Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 05 Sep 1802 STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,?KENT,?ENGLAND
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Elizabeth


more names found in later generations!




sylvia

I do not understand why, but there are several trees on ancestry which have Edward Butcher and Catherine, and they all seem to have decided that edward's parents are Samuel Butcher 1764-1841 and Sophia Worsfold 1764-1847, and that Edward was baptised July 3 1796, Cobham, Kent

I think one person entered this on their tree, and the others have copied it. But I do not see the reason why.

Especially as familysearch has an Edward Butcher born in Strood in 1788 ...... who would fit the family just as well.


Sophia Bucher is still alive in 1841 ..... and living in Hoo, Kent, with an apparent son George.

Edward Butcher born 1796 would have been 21 when he married Catherine



I just cannot see who originally determined that Samuel and Sophia were your Edward's parents .... and he certainly didn't use either of those names for his children!



I wonder if it is more likely that he was the Edward born in 1788

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Edward Butcher

Name: Edward Butcher
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 17 Aug 1788
Baptism/Christening Place: STROOD NEAR ROCHESTER,KENT,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Edward Butcher
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C13132-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 992463
Reference Number:


There's Edward again!



sylvia

England Marriages, 1538–1973 for Katherine Frances Butcher

Groom's Name: William Henry Grewcock
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Katherine Frances Butcher
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 09 Jul 1854
Marriage Place: Strood Near Rochester,Kent,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M13132-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 992463
Reference Number:


Marriages Sep 1854 (>99%)

BUTCHER Katherine Frances N Aylesford 2a 431
Grewcock William Henry N Aylesford 2a 431


1861 Census

Name: Catherine F Grewcock
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Grewcock
Gender: Female
Where born: Frindsbury, Kent, England

Civil parish: Rochester St Margaret
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Medway
Sub-registration district: Rochester

William Grewcock 28 b.ca 1833, Strood, Baker
Catherine F Grewcock 33
Thos W Grewcock 6
William H Grewcock 4
Catherine Grewcock 2
Mary A Grewcock 8 MO
Sarah Ann Frank 12 Servant

Address:- 21 John Street


Harriet is on the 1841 Census as a servant,

1841 Census

Name: Harriet Butcher
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Kent, England

Civil parish: St Margaret
Hundred: Rochester City
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Medway
Sub-registration district: Rochester

Mary Ann Oram 15 Female Servant
Harriet Butcher 15 Female Servant



She married in 1844 .....

Marriages Sep 1844 (>99%)

BUTCHER Harriett N Aylesford 5 453
CLARK Richard N Aylesford 5 453


1851 Census

Name: Harriett Clark
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Richard Clark
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Frindsbury, Kent, England

Civil parish: Strood
Ecclesiastical parish: Rochester
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: North Aylesford
Sub-registration district: Northfleet

Richard Clark 32 b.ca 1819, Strood, Hair Dresser
Harriett Clark 28

Address:- No 3 Cage Lane


They don't appear to have had any children




sylvia

and this looks like the youngest Henry with 2 of his siblings ....... I wodner if Mary Clark is his oldest sister Mary Ann?

Ages of people over the age of 15 were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 Census ..... thus Robert Clark could be any age between 25 and 29, and Mary Clark any age between 20 and 24 .... which would fit with Mary Ann Butcher


1841 Census

Name: Henry Butcher
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Kent, England

Civil parish: Strood
Hundred: Shamwell
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: North Aylesford
Sub-registration district: Strood

Robert Clark 25 Parish Clerk
Mary Clark 20
Edward Clark 5
Robert Clark 3
James Clark 1
Edward Butcher 15 Ag Lab
Catherine Butcher 13
Henry Butcher 11


YES!

1851 Census

Name: Henry Butcher
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Brother-in-Law 99%)

Butcher Catherine North Aylesford 5 299



Edweard Butcher had alos obviously died before the Census was taken in 1841.

There are 2 possibles on the familysearch site:-


England and Wales, Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8)

Edward Butcher
burial: 02 Dec 1831 Greenwich,? Kent


Edward Butcher
burial: 26 Apr 1829 Maidstone,? Kent




Matilda married in 1846, and then apparently a second time


England Marriages, 1538–1973

Matilda Butcher
marriage: 15 Mar 1846 Strood Near Rochester,?Kent,?England
spouse: Thomas John Barlow

Marriages Mar 1846 (>99%)

Barlow Thomas John N Aylesford 5 465
Butcher Matilda N Aylesford 5 465


Marriages Dec 1856 (>99%)

Barlow Matilda Dartford 2a 405
Osborne Thomas Dartford 2a 405
OR
Robins Richard Dartford 2a 405



sylvia

children of Edward and Catherine from a Public Family Tree on ancestry .... one more child than shown on beta.familysearch

spouse

Catherine Rich
1795 – 1837



Children

Mary Ann Butcher
1818 – 1852

Matilda Butcher
1821 –

Harriet Butcher
1823 –

Edward William Butcher
1825 – 1868

Katherine Frances Butcher
1827 – 1890

Henry Butcher
1830 –




sylvia

Hi Kucinta


yep, I know


.......... Terry wants to know, I think, if there were any more children of that marriage ........ that's how I understand the question he asked me in the pm, which I posted above in its entirety.


That posting, except for the first 2 lines, is exactly what he sent me.




I don't think you'd followed up on the children though had you?




sylvia


EDIT ........ oops, Kucinta deleted her message!

and there you will see that there are some siblings ............... it is always best to assume that not all will have been baptised, so take these as the minimum number of children


There are 2 records for each child because familysearch had 2 different ways of transcribing the records.


Click on the name of the child to see the information.


These records have been transcribed from the actual Parish Registers


You will also note that Catherine's name has been spelled at least 2 different ways.


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Edward William Butcher
christening: 05 Jun 1825 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catherine


Edward William Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 05 Jun 1825 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catherine


Matilda Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 18 Feb 1821 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catherine


Matilda Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 18 Feb 1821 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catherine


Katherine Frances Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 01 Jul 1827 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Katherine


Harriet Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 28 Mar 1823 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Katherine


Harriet Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 28 Mar 1823 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Katherine


Mary Ann Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 05 Nov 1818 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catharine


Mary Ann Butcher
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 05 Nov 1818 Frindsbury,? Kent,? England
residence: Kent,? England
parents: Edward Butcher,? Catharine





This is a free site, and it's where most of us go to get Parish records from before 1837.




sylvia

You can actually do this sort of search for yourself, if you want!


go to www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


scroll down to Advanced Search

Click on that


Enter Butcher in Surname

Event:- Birth

Place:- Kent, England

Date:- (search about 40 years after the marriage year) 1833 +/- 20

Select:- Parents

Father First Name:- Edward

Mother First Name:- Catherine


Click on Search




sylvia

Re the question you sent me by pm


I'm a little confused.


Do you mean you want to know whether Edward Butcher and Catherine Rich had any other children in addition to Edward William???




sylvia

Terry

you asked the question re looking for Edward William Butcher, and number of children on the duplicate thread. Someone told you on there thta he had died in 1868

but reading that question was why I went searching for the children of Edward William and Betsey


You have all that I could find on this thread.


I think several of them (at least 2) may well have died very young ............... look on www.freebmd.or.guk for deaths.




sylvia

Terry

Just a note that you will find that Eliza, Elizabeth, Beth, Bets(e)y, Betty, Bets are all variants of the same name, and you may well find some or all of them on different censuses for the same person ...... either because she has decided to use one of the variants, or her husband has, or the enumerator did.

same thing occurs with Helen and Ellen .... with Eleanor occasionally creeping.


The fact is, if all other information fits what you know (ie, names of all other emmbers of the family, birth years, birth places, where living, occupation, etc) then one has to assume that it is the same person who has changed his/her name for whatever reason!





sylvia

Terry sent me a pm asking me to see if I could find the following information. I prefer to work on the thread rather than by pm, unless for living relatives.


I Have a Edward Butcher and a Cathrine Rich who were married on 1 dec 1817.

Kacinta found an entry Edward William Butcher
Christened 05 June 1825, Frindsbury, Kent,England.
Parents Edward Butcher and catherine
(IGI extracted record)
and,
Edward William's parents marriage
Edward Butcher married catherine Rich
01dec1817,Strood, Near Rochester,Kent England.

Am trying to find any other siblings of Edward and Catherine Butcher.
The only one I have is Edward William Butcher as above.




sylvia

Terence, Edward William Butcher dies in 1868, so he's not going to show up in the 1881 census...


Deaths Mar 1868
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Butcher Edward William 42 N. Aylesford 2a 230


I'm having difficulty tracing Betsey after 1871 as either Betsey or as Elizabeth.

Can someone search the 1881 census for an
Edward William Butcher and Betsy Butcher (Nee Kingsnorth)They were married in 1850 in North Aylesford Kent.
I am trying to find the number of children they may have had.

Have birth cert. for William Stephen born 8/1/1859 and were living in Taylors Lane Strood, North Aylesforth at the time of his birth .
Thanks

Betsey was christened Betsey Ann in the IGI record I sent earlier in the thread and post again here:

IGI extracted record for christening of Betsey Ann Kingsnorth

19 AUG 1827 Strood Near Rochester, Kent, England

Parents George Kingsnorth and Hester
.

However I think you are right in that Elizabeth has been used for Betsey, and I believe this has happened on record at least once before, in the Kingsnorth family in 1841 record I posted earlier:

census 1841:

KINGSNORTH, George M 40 1801 Kent
KINGSNORTH, Esther F 35 1806
KINGSNORTH, George M 15 1826 Kent
>>>>>>>>KINGSNORTH, Elizabeth F 14 1827 Kent
KINGSNORTH, Esther F 12 1829 Kent
KINGSNORTH, William M 9 1832 Kent
KINGSNORTH, Jane F 7 1834 Kent
KINGSNORTH, John M 5 1836 Kent
KINGSNORTH, Ellen F 3 1838 Kent
KINGSNORTH, Thomas M 0 (9 months) 1841 Kent

Just a thought, but as you say, Betsey is a common diminutive for Elizabeth. perhaps an overenthusiatic enumerator 'corrected' what they thought to be a diminutive for the 'proper' name?

Or maybe Betsey just fancied being Elizabeth...

Thanks for all your help, but am now confused (I know easy to do with Family trees)
You sent me Catherine Mary Ann being daughter of Edward William and Betsey Ann Butcher

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Catherine Mary Ann Butcher
christening: 28 Sep 1851 Strood, Kent, England
residence: Strood (near Rochester), Kent, England
parents: Edward William Butcher, Betsy Ann Butcher

Well I found a marriage of her through FreeBMD Sep 1874 medway 2a 718, to a George Thomas Beadle, and hense on the 1881 census found her family. But in the 1871 census you found her mother to be Elizabeth Butcher , not Betsy Ann. Could she have simply used a different name, as I know nowadayes Betsy is short for Elizabeth.