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Robert in 1851 still not identified ?


Name: Robert Royle
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah Royle
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Pilkington
Town: Pilkington
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury

Robert Royle 24
Hannah Royle 23

looks good Chrissie!

from image of 1851

Robert Royle 24 Cotton Weaver
Hannah Royle 23 b. Ratcliffe, Lancashire, Cotton Weaver

Address:- Hollins Lane


and I can only identify that address as Hollins Lane, 'cos that is close to the area where I was born



sylvia

I wonder if this is William Royle's marriage to Alice??


It is in the correct area (Bury)


and it could also explain the forename Kay!


England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910 for William Royle

Name: William Royle
Event: Marriage
Event Date: 02 Jan 1826
Event Place: Bury (St Mary), Lancashire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status: Single
Estimated Birth Year:
Father:
Mother:
Spouse: Alice Kay
Spouse's Age:
Spouse's Marital Status: Single
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year:
Spouse's Father:
Spouse's Mother:
Film Number: 2356573
Digital Folder Number: 004497646
Image Number: 00248


The image says:-

They were married after Banns

that William is a Weaver and Bachelor

Alice is a Spinster

The witnesses were John Taylor and Thomas Crompton ....... both appear to be "professional witnesses" as they appear on other marriages



sylvia

and it looks as though Elizabeth was born before their marriage ........ but it confirms Alice's surname!


from that beta.familysearch site

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: Elizabeth Royle
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 20 Feb 1825
Baptism/Christening Place: Prestwich, Unsworth, Lancashire, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: William Royle
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Alice Kay
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04736-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545744
Reference Number: item 2



sylvia

Just so that I can see them, here are the Royle children mmn Rimmer, from Lancsbmd, as shown by Christina(Lancashire)


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1848
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

ROYLE Alice Pilkington Bury RIMMER PILK/10/3


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849

ROYLE William Pilkington Bury RIMMER PILK/10/96


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1850

ROYLE James Pilkington Bury RIMMER PILK/12/17


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1852

ROYLE Kay Radcliffe Bury RIMMER RAD/7/20


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1856

ROYLE Elizabeth Radcliffe Bury RIMMER RAD/9/18



and here are the baptisms as shown on beta.familysearch:-

England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910

Name: Alice Royle
Event: Christening
Event Date: 28 May 1848
Event Place: Unsworth (Prestwich), Lancashire, England
Gender: Female
Age:
Marital Status:
Estimated Birth Year:
Father: Robert Royle
Mother: Hannah Royle
Spouse:
Spouse's Age:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year:
Spouse's Father:
Spouse's Mother:
Film Number: 2356300
Digital Folder Number: 004451921
Image Number: 00880

Born:- April 10 1848
Address:- Unsworth
Father occupation:- Weaver


Name: William Royle
Event: Christening
Event Date: 23 Mar 1849
Event Place: Unsworth (Prestwich), Lancashire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Estimated Birth Year:
Father: Robert Royle
Mother: Hannah Royle
Spouse:
Spouse's Age:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year:
Spouse's Father:
Spouse's Mother:
Film Number: 2356300
Digital Folder Number: 004451921
Image Number: 00884

Born:- Mar 14 1849
Address:- Unsworth
Father occupation:- Weaver


Name: James Royle
Event: Christening
Event Date: 30 Jul 1850
Event Place: Unsworth (Prestwich), Lancashire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Estimated Birth Year:
Father: Robert Royle
Mother: Hannah Royle
Spouse:
Spouse's Age:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year:
Spouse's Father:
Spouse's Mother:
Film Number: 2356300
Digital Folder Number: 004451921
Image Number: 00889

Born:- July 23 1850
Address:- Unsworth
Father occupation:- Weaver


Name: Elizabeth Royle
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 30 Nov 1856
Baptism/Christening Place: Saint Thomas, Radcliffe, Lancaster, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Robert Royle
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Hannah
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04641-3
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545747
Reference Number:

Image not available for more information




sylvia

It looks as though the children may not have lived long

I ahve been unable to find them on any census, but have found these possible deaths on lancsbmd

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1848

ROYLE Alice 0 Pilkington Bury PILK/6/76


Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1849

ROYLE William 0 Pilkington Bury PILK/7/20


????
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1858

ROYLE Elizabeth 1 Radcliffe Bury RAD/7/41





sylvia

surname Kay, excellent, that name had to come from somewhere !

reminds me of some ancestor's brother or some such of mine with a riduculous name like Green Fields ... Green was a maternal surname of course, but still ...

yes, it really does explain that unusual name of Kay .


.... very unusual for that time, even if it had been given to a female.


and especially unusual as a male name!





sylvia

I wonder if this was Alice Kay's baptism


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Alice Kay

Name: Alice Kay
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 26 Mar 1815
Baptism/Christening Place: Blackley, Lancashire, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: George Kay
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Hannah
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04826-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 559152
Reference Number: p 90




sylvia

NO NO NO

that can't be Alice Kay's baptism


or else she was married when she was only 11 years old!!!!





sylvia

Interesting

Alice is shown as born ca 1806 on the 1841 census

but 1817 on the 1851 Census


and both ages seem to be correct on the image vs the transcription



so ..................



did William marry twice?







sylvia

actually it could have been a late baptism, they weren't unheard of

other baptisms to that couple William 1812 Susannah 1817 Lois 1821 in Blackley

a George and Hannah Kay also had a bundle of children baptised in Blackley 1834 to 1841 ... possibly a son George Kay who married a woman with the same name as his mother, another fine ancestral trick

the only remotely similar marriage showing at familysearch

pouse: Hannah Eastwood

groom's name: George Kay
bride's name: Hannah Eastwood
marriage date: 19 Apr 1802
marriage place: Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England
indexing project (batch) number: M00546-3
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 483187

if that were the one it would be possible there were births before 1812 ...

oops, you sneaked the second marriage question in there

here are the parents of the 1815 Alice Kay in 1841

Name: Hannah Kay
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1777
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Blackley

George Kay 61
Hannah Kay 64
Mary Kay 31
Susanna Kay 23
Richard Kay 14
Frances Kay 6


same as the Ryle/Royles in 1841 ... multiple households of them together :-)

I questioned earlier, after posting the 1851 Census, whether there had been a second marriage


There is a huge gap between Kay, b. ca 1831, and Alfred and Sarah born between 1836 and 1838


Add that to the difference in age between Alice in 1841 and Alice in 1851 and all later censuses.




sylvia

This death from beta.familysearch intrigues me ....... the area is the same one shown for some of the children


England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991 for Alice Royle

Name: Alice Royle
Gender: Female
Burial Date: 24 Sep 1843
Burial Place: Stand, Prestwich, Lancaster, England
Death Date:
Death Place:
Age: 41
Birth Date: 1802
Birthplace:
Occupation:
Race:
Marital Status:
Spouse's Name:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Mother's Name:
Mother's Birthplace:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B02378-5
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1751508
Reference Number: cn 1102 p 138




sylvia

that is interesting and it certainly fits, although all children born in the 1830s would be hers ( that gap isn't so very huge and there could have been miscarriages, stillbirths ... )

edit

and there is no other Alice R*yle that age-ish in Prestwich area in 1841

and no Alice R*yle of appropriate age in 1851 and subsequent censuses

but I meant for the one who died 1843 :-)

the only one in 1841 is 'our' Alice ... or at least our first Alice ... ?

I have lost track of what we're looking for ... a second marriage of William Royle to an Alice ?

1851 again


edit ! I had the wrong couple ... this is 1851

William Royle 50 b.ca 1801, Unsworth, Lancashire, Farmer of 8 acres
Alice Royle 34 b.ca 1817, Unsworth
Kay Royle 20 Farm Work
Alfred Royle 5
Sarah Royle 2


a possible couple ( lots of names in the list )

Marriages Sep 1846
Hughes Alice Ellen Manchester 20 628
Royle William Manchester 20 628

yes, I made a mistake on that posting 3 or 4 back


Alfred was born ca 1846, not 1836

and Sarah was born ca 1849, not 1838


and that would fit in with that Manchester marriage ................ I had spotted that one, and wondered about it.



sylvia