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Hi Wayne

Had a good look at certs---It looks as if Eliza's father was named ROBERT---

I wondered why I couldn't find your great grandfathers death---could this be the reason ?

Casualty Details
Name: SWANN, ERNEST
Initials: E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 43
Date of Death: 09/05/1915
Service No: 20116
Additional information: Husband of Eliza Ann Swann, of 76, Alfreton Rd., Sutton-in-Ashfield, Notts.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 7.
Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

(click on the "certificate" button on the bottom of this, to see the "In Memory " certificate, which you could print off.)

link to this

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=869021

Barbara x

Hi Barbara,
thanks - I've just sent them over to the email address you sent me.

Wayne

Wayne would you scan the certs to me to see if i can pick up anything from them ? I will PM my e-mail to you if you would like me to take a look

Barbara x

Actually - just reading that marriage certificate again, the double B at the end of William James' name could also easily be a double L.

Hi Barbara, thanks, good spot for the Walters in Huthwaite one. Also, the witness William James could be Norwebb but it's difficult to know as the second and third letters have been written over as if correcting a spelling.

Oh well - I'll keep looking. One of the big problems is that there aren't many relatives to talk to that I haven't already talked to and the ones that I have spoken to say they don't know much about that side of the family.

I'm waiting for Mansfield library to re-open so I can start looking at archives and newspaper articles etc. Something else for me to learn how to do

Could William James (the witness with Elizabeth Cotton) have the surname NORWEBB ???

I think these 2 ended up married !!

Marriages Jun 1892 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>COTTON Elizabeth Nottingham 7b 504 >>>Norwebb William James Nottingham 7b 504 <<<<<




1901 cencus


Name: Wm Jas Norwell

[Wm Jas Norwebb]

Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizth Norwell
Father's Name: Samuel Holland
Mother's Name: Emma Holland
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Nottingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address: 13 Cherry street (or place)

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Nottingham
Sub-registration district: Nottingham North East
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 73
Piece: 3173
Folio: 43
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Jas Norwell 29
Elizth Norwell 31
Alfred Norwell 3
Beatrice May Norwell 1
Joseph Bish 25

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3173; Folio: 43; Page: 13.


Sorry Wayne, I know this isn't helping very much with your Eliza and Ernest

Barbra x

Hi Wayne

I don't think the Eliza you found in1891 is any good either !!!

1891 England Census 1891 England Census
Name: William Wallers
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Son-in-Law
Gender: Male
Where born: Staveley, Derbyshire, England

Civil parish: Hucknall Under Huthwaite
Ecclesiastical parish: Sutton in Ashfield
Town: Hucknall Under Huthwaite
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address: MAIN STREET

Occupation:


Employment status: View image

Registration district: Mansfield
Sub-registration district: Sutton in Ashfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2653
Folio: 146
Page Number: 11
Household Members: Name Age
John Cockayne 45
Annie Cockayne 44
Eliza Cockayne 20 --daut--married --and image says Eliza Walters!!!!
Mary Hannah Cockayne 16
John Cockayne 7
George Cockayne 9/12
William Wallers 22----(looks like WALTERS on image) son in--law
Annie Cockayne 9/12


Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2653; Folio 146; Page 11; GSU roll: 6097763.


MAYBE Marriage of this Eliza nd William (So Husband and Wife not Brother and Sister)

Marriages Jun 1891

>>>>>Cockayne Eliza Mansfield 7b 127 >>>>>Walters William Mansfield 7b 127 <<< <<<<<<



Barbara x

Ok - here goes. First of all the birth certificate for my Grandfather.

Registration District = Mansfield
1906 Birth in the Sub-district of Sutton in Ashfield in the County of Nottingham

When and where born = First October 1906 Woodhouse Yard Sutton in Ashfield U.D.

Name = Albert

Name and Surname of Father = Ernest Swann

Name, surname and maiden name of mother = Eliza Swann formerly Walters

Occupation of Father = Coal Miner

Signature, description and residence info = E. Swann Mother Woodhouse Yard Sutton in Ashfield

When Registered = Tenth November 1906

Signature of Registrar = Tom T. Charlton, Registrar

The details from the marriage certificate I just received are as follows although some of it is really hard to make out. Not sure if it's a bad copy or a bad original.

1891 Marriage solemnised at Nottingham in the Church of St. Paul in the County of Nottingham

When Married = November 28 1891

Name and Surname = Ernest Swan, Eliza Ann Waiters

Age = 18, 19

Condition = Bachelor, Spinster

Rank or Profession = Miner

Residence at time of marriage = Cherry Place (for both)

Father's name and Surname = illegitimate, Norbert or Herbert Waiters

Rank or Profession of father = - , miner

Married in the church of St. Paul blah, blah

This marriage was solemnised between us = Ernest Swan and Eliza Ann Waiters

in the presence of us = William James (Woodwebb (?)), Elizabeth Cotton

Barbara - its not a problem at all - it looked right to me at the time and there are bound to be times when something doesn't turn out to be what you thought. I really do appreciate any help you are able to offer. I'm learning how to do this all the time and I find it really interesting. I'm at work at the moment so will post full details from the two certificates later from home.

Potty - thanks for your help. I have managed to find an Eliza Walters born 1871 living with another family on Main Street in Huthwaite at the time of the 1891 census, which would be only months before she got married. Main Street is only a stones throw from where the Swann family were living later on Newcastle Street and then Alfreton Road. The family name is Cockayne. Although it says her place of birth is other than Chesterfield, she is there with what looks to be an older brother called William Walters who was born in Staveley which is in Chesterfield, so I am thinking that may be her, but it doesn't get me any closer to Ernest's parents and siblings.

This is the only Eliza "Waiters" b 1872 Derbyshire that I can find on the census:

1881 England Census
about Eliza Waiters
Name: Eliza Waiters
[Eliza Walters]
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert Waiters
Mother's Name: Anna Waiters
Gender: Female
Where born: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

Civil parish: Skegby
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address: 23 Stoneyford Lane
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Mansfield
Sub-registration district: Sutton In Ashford
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3316
Folio: 71
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Waiters 47
Anna Waiters 47
Eliza Waiters 7
William Waiters 4
Joseph Padley 71


In 1891 the family are living at 9 Buxton Terrace. Is any of this anything like the info on the marriage cert?

Hi Wayne
Please can you put everything on that it states on the marriage cert--names ages, addresses --fathers name and occ, witness' ect

Also on Alberts birth cert--were his parents just Ernest and Eliza or were middle names mentioned ?

Barbara x

I am so sorry if I have led you to the wrong marriage :-(

Hi, well, I got the marriage certificate through and it doesn't look like this is the right marriage. First of all Eliza's surname hasn't been mis transcribed, it is definitely Waiters. Ernest's surname is also spelled with only one n. He is also described as illegitimate so it wouldn't have helped that much anyway. I also don't recognise either of the witness names or the address they lived at.

Ok - good point. We'll see what happens.

W

The thing is,Wayne, on the marriage index page the 2 sets of people are

Marriages Dec 1891

Greatrix Elizabeth Hannah Nottingham 7b 509
Osborne William Nottingham 7b 509
Swan Ernest Nottingham 7b 509
WAITERS Eliza Ann Nottingham 7b 509


So to be your Great Grandfather he needs to have married Eliza Ann Waiters (Walters ) !!!

Barbara x

I'm kind of thinking Eliza Ann and Elizabeth Hannah are close enough to be the same anyway.

We'll see.

W

Sent PM to you Wayne.

The marriage I hope it to be is to Eliza Ann ---not Elizabeth Hannah !!!

Barbara x

Ooh, just saw your last post. Where did you find that? Is there a link?

W

Just did a google lookup for Sutton in Ashfield UD and found a page on visionofbritain.org.uk which says that Sutton was set up as an Urban District in 1894 and it was abolished in 1974, so looks like you nailed it.

I know what you mean about the addresses. It's really frustrating although I know from talking to my mum's aunt that the family moved at some point from Huthwaite to Sutton. Newcastle St, their address in 1901 is just about in Huthwaite but in reality you can walk it in about 5 minutes from Newcastle St to Alfreton Road, Sutton, their address in 1911.

Anyway, on the strength of your evidence I have just ordered the marriage document from the GRO for Ernest and Elizabeth. I'll let you know what gems it brings forth

All the best

Wayne

Just found this, what do ypu think ?

>>>Woodhouse Yard, Alfreton Road, Sutton-in-Ashfield


The family were living in Alfreton Road in 1911 census !!!

Barbara x

Could it be " Urban District" ?

I was hoping the address would be the one they were at in 1901 or 1911 But it seems not :-(

Barbara x