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Chris - I think you're right, I just had a closer look at the notes, it's Sponsford, which is not a name I've ever come across before either.

Birth 29/04/1874
Baptism 10/05/1874
Name Shiner William John
Father William Shiner
Mother Matilda Sponsford
Godparents Father and Mother

and if you happen to clarify that Matilda's name from a baptism record ... 'Sponsfield' doesn't really seem to be a name :-(

OK Jersey, I'm willingly to wait :) just don't rush to do it for me though!

Thanks a lot,

T

T

Just to let you know that I haven't forgotten about Charles John Kirwan, I have found his birth in the indexes but just haven't had a chance to go and look at the entry.

chrissiex

At the moment I can't find any marriage records for William Shiner. For some reason I have his wives as Matilda Sponsfield and Mary Louisa Mossey in my notes - just can't remember where I found the names, probably in the baptism registers.

hi jerseylily, you can't leave my curiosity unquenched like this ! :-)

is there a marriage for William Shiner and Matilda or Mathilda sometime between 1870 and 1881 ?

it really seems from the censuses that Ros/a is the stepdaughter of William Shiner born before his marriage to Matilda ( if they married ) so only that marriage is likely to solve the mystery of what her real name was ... and I am all wanting to know now !

Jersey,

May I be very cheeky and ask if you could look up on the birth/baptism of Charles John Kirwan, when you next visit please? He was born in 1907.

Thanks,

T

Wow many thanks guys for finding them and big thanks to you, Jersey for more info on Gladys' parents. I really do appreciate you all for doing this for me, I normally is ok doing it but this one threw me, but with your help I can move on a bit :)

T

I've now been and had a look at Gladys's birth certificate and as I and others suspected her parents were Henry Edward Lainey and Rose Shiner. She was born 19/10/1910 at 10, Sand Street, St Helier, her father is described as a Labourer and her mother (who made her mark) registered the birth.

I then went on to find Henry and Rose's marriage certificate.

They married at St Andrew's Church in St Helier 31/12/1891, so Rose's married 13 years was a bit out! The entry reads thus,

Edward Henry Lainey, aged 27, bachelor, no occupation given, living in St Helier, born in Jersey. Father Edward Henry Lainey, Sailor
to
Rose Shiner, aged 21, spinster, no occupation, living in St Helier, born in Plymouth. Father William Shiner, no occupation.

The witnesses were John Sangan and Mary Ann Eveleigh

I don't think Edward/Henry was born in Jersey. Going through the census returns

1871
Name Age
Julie Roussel 38
Azeline Roussel 16
Marie Roussel 19
Fany Lene 33
Emile Lene 11
Henri Lene 7 <<<<Grandchild

1881
Name Age
Jacques Sangan 31
Kelene Sangan 24 <<<< Azeline from 1871
Jules Sangan 2
Marie Sangan 1
Julie Roussel 53
Fannie Lainier 43
Emile Lainier 21
Henry Lainier 17 <<<< Cousin
Jules L. Luce 49

Notice the name Sangan here and as a witness to the marriage

1891
Name Age
Walter J A Abraham 27
Meline F Abraham 52 <<<< Azeline and should be 32
Louis J Sangan 12
Marie B Sangan 11
Azeline E Sangan 9
Amandine H J Sangan 6
Francois Lainle 58
Edward H Lainle 28 <<<<< wife's cousin

And I can't find him in 1901

I'll try a couple of French sites later and see if I can find a birth for Edward/Henry

what about ...


... I had speculated about two possible people in the censuses and archive records

Henry P L'Ainé/L'Amy son of Henri Fernand

and

Henry Edward George L'Amy probably son of Jane

... but jerseylily seems to have spotted the right person in the censuses based on similarities in the marriage record ... so I am deleting the info about those two :-)

ah that explains why I was getting site does not exist messages !

stupid stupid me I did not realise you could see the transcriptions of baptisms on line

the first one I find shows that Thelma found the absolutely right Rosa and I was right about other children ( assuming the Rosa in the 1911 is the same person and I think so ! )


date of baptism 04/09/1898
date of birth 20/08/1898
Florence May Lainey
father Henry
mother Rosina Shiner
Labourer, Elizabeth Lane
godparent 1 Father
godparent 2 Eliza Shiner

... but same mother ... different father from the one named on the marriage ?


date of baptism 05/01/1902
date of birth 18/12/1901
Rosetta Maud Lainey
father Henry
mother Rosina Shiner
father's occupation Labourer, 1 Ingouville Place
godparent 1 David Wilson
godparent 2 Alice Bisson

date of baptism 22/03/1903
date of birth 04/03/1903
Catherine Mabel Lainey
father Henry
mother Rosina Shiner
Labourer, Seaton Place
godparent 1 Charles Andrews
godparent 2 Margaret Andrews


but Gladys was born too late to be in the index on line

As there's a lot of information on this thread I'll reply on here rather than on my Jersey thread.

This is Gladys's marriage,

St Helier 24/1/1931

Charles John Kirwan, aged 24, bachelor, occupation Labourer, born and liiving in St Helier. Father Thomas Frank Kirwan - Soldier

Gladys Maud Laney, aged 21, spinster, born and living in St Helier. Father Edward John Laney - Labourer

The witnesses were A E Mitchel and W B de la Mare

Notice that Lainey has yet another possible spelling in the marriage register.

There is only 1 Kirwan family on the 1901, that of Thomas from Waterford, Ireland and he is a Gunner stationed at Rozel Barracks.

Apart from a possible father for Gladys this doesn't get us much further forward, there is an Edward Lainée from France on the 1891 but I can't see him in 1901.

I have found the record of Gladys's birth in the indexes so my next step will be a trip to the Registry Office to have a look at her birth entry which should give Rosa's maiden name (if she had one!)

You can view any of the baptisms on-line at www.jerseyheritagetrust.jeron.je
Click on Archives and then Name, enter the name in the search box, surname first. Where it shows a baptism record click on 'order items/more details and on the next page click to see a PDF transcription.

The site has been down until today because we had a massive power cut which blew out the server.

about Gladys ... yes a different person ( I see you know your Gladys's birth date so that wasn't a mistake in 1911 ! ) ... I thought the name in the same family might be interesting but probably just coincidence since they aren't really related ...

I have racked my ancestry subscription trying to find a Ros* anything born in Devon in the 1871 census with a mother Matilda or Mathilda who would fit but all to no avail at all !

if a marriage for Matilda and William Shiner could be found ... or a baptism for any children then had ... that would sure help a lot

the jersey heritage trust site stopped working for me yesterday ... I see it is back working again now

I would really really get hold of the baptism records for

Rosetta Maud Lainey
Catherine Mabel Lainey

that are in the Jersey records because I would want to find out whether they were Rosa's children too ... if so the baptism records could tell you a lot

Whoa.. Many thanks for that Chrissie & Thelma, it might be a big possible that Rosa never married (it did come across my mind before).

I will add these people in a separate tree and sort it out to merge later.

Many thanks again,

T

Chrissie, that Gladys M F is a different Gladys as this one was Gladys Maud born 19 October 1910.

Sorry, I just got my internet back last night - I'm now reading it and see how it goes/fit.

T

T in Middx have you had a chance to see what Thelma found and I followed up on ?

Louisa Osborn Shiner in 1891 in St Helier

Louisa Osborne 30
Mary Marry 70 mother *
William Osborne 12
Lydia Osborne 9
May Osborne 7
Louisa Osborne 5
Dora Osborne 2

* corrected to Massy by an Ancestry user

in 1881 in St Helier

William Osborne 24 born Crekerne, general labourer
Louisa Osborne 22 born St Lawrence
William Osborne 2
Ada Osborne 1
Mary Mossey 56


these people are not related to Rosa ... Louisa is her stepfather's second wife it seems ... but if the Ancestry user knows the family it could be worth enquiring

also of course scouring family trees at this website for connections :-)

... and someone does have Eliza Shiner 1871 Jersey ... Rosa's half-sister ? in their tree ...

... two other people have William 1879 and Ada 1880 Osborne born Jersey ... children of Rosa's stepfather's second wife ? ... in their trees


T in Middx would it help us at all to know what your connection with Rosa or Gladys is ?

Shiner, Gladys May Falle
G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

Shiner, Iris Frances Falle
G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

Shiner, Ellen Amelia Falle ( Hellen A F in 1901)
G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

Shiner, Thomas Falle
D/S Immigration and Nationality Department D/S/A/4/A10957 Registration card of Thomas Falle Shiner of 3, Craig Street, St Helier, born 19/12/1897. 16/01/1941 - 16/01/1941
D/S Immigration and Nationality Department D/S/A/4/B10957 Blue registration form of Thomas Falle Shiner of 3, Craig Street, St Helier, born 19/12/1897. 16/01/1941 - 16/01/1941
D/Y/B2 Copy Testaments D/Y/B2/52 Volume of Copy Testaments. Contains an index to all testaments and copies of all testaments with grants of probate (post 1949) (Volume 87 - Numbers 509/74 - 681/74) 05/08/1974 - 11/10/1974
G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909


Shiner, Matilda
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883

Shiner, Julia
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883

Shiner, Mary Jane
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883

Shiner, Eliza Ann
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/14 Admission Register 01/01/1891 - 31/12/1891

Shiner, Ellen Matilda
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883

Shiner, William John
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/2 Admission Register 01/01/1879 - 13/12/1879
D/J/O6 Admission Registers of Boys D/J/O6/2 Admission Register of Boys (2) -

the mother and children in the 1881 census seem to have had health problems in 1881 ... were there deaths ?


William Shiner
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/6 Admission Register 01/01/1883 - 25/12/1883
D/AN/B1 Jersey General Hospital Admission Registers D/AN/B1/8 Admission Register 01/01/1885 - 16/12/1885
D/J/O8 Headmaster's Diaries D/J/O8/1 Headmaster's Diary, includes newscuttings [This log book has been indexed by people's names. Please note that the person that you are interested in may only appear on one page] 01/01/1890 - 31/01/1897
G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/15 Baptism Register with separate index. [Closed for preservation Purposes-please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 13/08/1848 - 29/07/1855


but not one single mention of a Ros* Shiner

she was the eldest of all the children in 1881 and undoubtedly a stepchild of William Shiner

finding Matilda's surname ... from the baptisms of one of her children with William ? ... could identify Rosena/Rosaline/Rosa

excellent, I'd been looking in 1901 for any Ros* ... guess I didn't go to 1891 !

I would read it as Rosaline ... and I don't see any birth for a Ros* Shi* to match at all.

I would wonder whether she was really married and that was a married surname ... but nothing to match that either ... but if that were the case it would suggest she was not married to Lainey ...


nope ...

1881

Name: Rosena Shiner
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Shiner
Mother's Name: Mathilda Shiner
Gender: Female
Where born: England

Civil parish: St Helier
Street Address: 28 Pier Rd

William Shiner 30 born Jersey, labourer
Mathilda Shiner 34 born England
William J. Shiner 6 born Jersey
Rosena Shiner 10 born England
Ellen M. Shiner 8 born Jersey
Mary Jane Shiner 2 "
Julia M. Shiner 9 weeks "
Eliza Ann Shiner 7 "


kids are out of order ... looks like some may be stepchildren of head ...


1891, just William and Matilda

William Shiner 40
Matilda Shiner 43
Charles Hart 33 lodger

Julia Shiner who was 9 weeks old in 1881 is in the Jersey Orphans Home in 1891
there is also an Isabella Shiner born c1883 in the orphans home
William Shiner born c1874 in Plymouth is a servant in St Helier
Eliza Shiner born c1872 in St Helier is a servant


same William Shiner in 1901 in St Helier with new wife ?

William Shiner 49 fisherman born St Heliers
Louisa M Shiner 40 born St Lawrence
William F Osborn 22 stepson ... all children born St Heliers
Lydia M L Osborn 19 stepdaughter
Ada L Osborn 13 stepdaughter
Doris V Osborn 12 stepdaughter
Edward C Osborn 8 stepdaughter
George Shiner 7 son
Hellen A F Shiner 4 daughter
Thomas F Shiner 3 son
Gladis M F Shiner 8 MO daughter
Ernest A Channing 21


.......... note the child Gladis M F Shiner ... could Gladdis's age in 1911 possibly have been mistranscribed ?

1891 Channel Islands Census
about Rosalino Shiner Name: Rosalino Shiner
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Plymouth, England
Civil parish: St Helier
Ecclesiastical parish: St Helier
Town: St Heliers
County/Island: Jersey

still just idly poking ...

are the other Laineys in 1901 related do you think ?

Name: Rosetta M Lainey
Spouse Surname: Goss
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1935
Registration district: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 495

spouse is Albert E Goss but his page no. is 493 at ancestry

Name: Rosetta Maud Goss
Birth Date: 18 Dec 1901
Date of Registration: Jul 1989
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Hillingdon
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 13
Page: 765

Name: Albert Edward Goss
Birth Date: 12 Sep 1896
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1973
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5a
Page: 2042

Births Dec 1896
Goss Albert Edward Croydon 2a 237

they are not in anyone's tree and seem not to have had children


in 1911 her household is

LAINEY ROSETTA MAUD 1902 9 Jersey
LAINEY KATHLEEN MABEL 1903 8 Jersey

and living with many children with various surnames aged 17 down to 7 but no adult that I see ... a care home of some kind ?

I would think those two children are very possibly Rosa's as well, especially given the name Rosetta ... and Gladys was with Rosa because of her young age


if all else failed I might consider getting Rosetta's marriage certificate


on the Laisney / Lainey possibility


1901 Channel Islands Census
Name: Arthur Laisney
Birth: abt 1893 - Trinity, Jersey, Channel Islands
Residence: 1901 - Trinity, Jersey, Channel Islands

Marriages Jun 1917
Lainey Arthur R /Carpenter Hastings 2b 28

Deaths Dec 1917
Lainey Arthur R 25 Portsmouth 2b 588


I should look at jerseylily's thread to see what else you know about Gladys :-)


here we are, what you probably know

http://jerseyheritagetrust.jeron.je/name.html

D/S Immigration and Nationality Department D/S/A/4/A6698 Registration card of Gladys Maud Kirwan, née Lainey, of 2, Hue Cottages, Hue Street, St Helier, born 19/10/1910, James Edward Kirwan, Joan Maude Kirwan, and Marjorie Ann Kirwan, registered as children on back of card 30/01/1941 - 30/01/1941

D/S Immigration and Nationality Department D/S/A/4/B6698 Blue registration form of Gladys Maud Kirwan, née Lainey, of 2, Hue Cottages, Hue Street, St Helier, born 19/10/1910, James Edward Kirwan, Joan Maude Kirwan, and Marjorie Ann Kirwan, registered as children on back of card 30/01/1941 - 30/01/1941

for Rosetta Maud Lainey

G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

for Catherine Mabel Lainey

G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

there is also Florence May Lainey

G/C/03/A2 Baptism Registers G/C/03/A2/21 Baptism Register with separate index-[Closed for preservation purposes please use online transcription or ask for a CD] 28/07/1889 - 21/02/1909

another possibility for spelling seen there is Lainé