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For all that, I still couldn't find any of them :-(

Still no Joy as yet with the searching. BUT, I had a closer look [magnifying glass] at the 1911 census copy for the Institution, and alongside BERTHA's name is "Inmate - Age 16 - Single - and last, birthplace LANCASHIRE, MANCHESTER...
That I think should be a great help.....
John :-)

Many thanks Mike,
[I was just on the tenth bottle when I saw your last message]

John :-)

So if the ages on both marriage and death certs are indeed correct, she would have been born between 12th April and 11th June 1894

1911 census was taken on 2nd April which would also mean that her age in the institution was correct . She would have been 16, nearly 17.

So all you have to do is find a Bertha Elizabeth ( any surname) born between those dates. whose mother possibly married an Edward Walsh before 1911.

Over to you ... and go easy on those pills !

Died:- 11th JUNE 1953....
Married: 12th APRIL 1919.....
John

What actual date in the June Quarter of 1919 was her marriage ?

Died 11th June 1953.

If her birthday was before 11th June, but after the date on which she married, then both would be correct.

Either way is doesn't point to a birthday in February

Mike,
On her marriage cert in 1919 her age was 24 which DOB would be 1895..
On her death cert in 1953 her age was 59 which DOB would be 1894,

1895 looks to be the more correct...

John....[not much help i'm afraid Mike]

"\On her marriage cert and her death cert, she was down as Bertha Elizabeth."

Just going over old ground but, is your mother's birthday on her death certificate ?
I know you were only 16 when she died but Can you remember when she celebrated her birthday ?

Mike, Mavis and Judith, I'm ready to concede that I may have the wrong berth cert for Bertha Walsh.......Also that the area in Leigh may also be wrong.....
The Institute in Middlesboro 1911 census has her age at 16, which was pointed out by one you good people, meaning her DOB was 1895 and not 1896....Next, thinking about what Mike said, "Why move a child all the way from Lancashire to a Institute in Middlesboro, [they have them in Lancs also]...
The Edward Walsh may well be right but not the Elizabeth Marsh...
Bertha ALWAYS put her name down as Bertha Elizabeth, she may well have been right... So now I am looking for a Bertha [or Bertha Elizabeth ] Walsh somewhere nearer to the Middlesboro area.... But also with a 'problem' for being put into a Home - eg, No Parents ????
Regards to all you kind people... John
[Now where's the pills} :-)

In 1901

There are 3 Bertha Walsh born 1893/92 lancashire
1 Thomas and Hannah -- Wigan
1 James and Nancy -- Bolton
1 Edward and Ellen -- Coppull

these 3 are still with parents 1911

2 others born 1894
1 Patrick and Mary
1 Ruben and Alice E

these I hav'nt discovered yet on 1911, not checked deaths or marriages

but still makes it hard if Birthday not know

Mavis

Trouble is .... if the birth cert you have is not your mum, then she was not necessarily born in Leigh and her mother may not have been called Elizabeth.

If no Bertha Walsh can be found on 1901 census, the odds are that she was Bertha something-else at the time, which again means you've got the wrong cert.

But Mike & Judith, she was in the Institution in Middelesboro, I have that on the 1911 census for Institution. Inmate Bertha Walsh age 16.... Even these may have made a mistake when Bertha was first placed in the Home with regards to her age..
Bertha was, on her 'exit' from the Home employed as a Nursery Maid at Kildale Hall.. {I have had this placed checked for any info regarding Bertha, but no records were kept apparently]..
I know my family , all deceased now, always insisted that she was in a Home and that she worked as a Nursery Nurse....The one thing I keep 'grabbing' at was - [ASSUMING] Bertha born 1896/05 in a Home by 1900. [Not on 1901 local census] - Edward Walsh, father, dies before 1900,.....
Wife; Elisabeth can't "manage", ends up also in A Home...
8 Ellesmere Street, house empty on 1901 census for Leigh.. No one there as Bertha is in a Home, Elizabeth is in a Home, Edward is deceased [as on her marriage cert].....
If I could find Elizabeth in any Home [1901 census] that would help.. If I could find a marriage Edward/Elizabeth cert, it would help...............And at the end of it all, Mike, you and Judith may well be right.. But I won't stop
until I find that info.
Many thanks John, you've ALL be a great help, and you have helped, belive me..... :-) <3

And then 1911....???

HOUSEHOLD LAMB BERTHA E F 1894 17 Hartlepool Durham

E being the beauty!!!

Wondering about this entry in 1901


1901
Bertha Lamb - 7- born Durham West Hartlepool - residing Durham Seaton Carew - Juvenile

I too think the birth cert you have is NOT your mother's.

The fact that Bertha does not appear on the 1901 census would indicate that she was not Walsh at that time.


Now I'm not saying this IS your Bertha, but just consider a similar chain of events
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1894
Lamb Bertha Elizabeth - Hartlepool 10a 124



Marriages Sep 1901 ---------------
DUFFY Julia Liverpool 8b 261
LAMB Rose Ann - Liverpool 8b 261
MURRAY William James Liverpool 8b 261
WALSH Edward - Liverpool 8b 261

---------------------------------------------------------------


Just possible ??

which brings us back to was she born "Walsh"

The fathers occupation not known I thought was on her birth cert -- Edwards job not known -- what wife wouldnt know what her husband worked at.. but that is if thats the right cert.

again on her marriage she gives her father as Edward - deceased how would she know her fathers name but not her birth date , which brings us to was he invented ??

On Berth's death Jun Q 1953 59y -- this brings us back to was she born - with that age in 1894 or 1893 depending when she had her birthday. . !!!

I still feel you may have the wrong Bertha

Mavis

Mavis does have a point...if Bertha's dob was February 1896 then at census she would be 15 not 16 (she wouldn't have been 16 until 1912) but she still doesn't show up in the censuses!

Hi Mavis - On Berth Cert just Bertha.... On Census for the Institution just Bertha, both give DOB as 1896 [Berth cert as 15th Feb 1896]...
On the 1911 census she was age 16...The father not known Mavis was on her Marriage Cert in 1919 not on her berth cert....
Between you and me, this Lady is 'driving me right up the wall'..
I'm stuck in Leigh and can't get out...
Just One clue that's all.....and I'll 'crack it'.....
Many thanks Mavis for your interest and advice, very much appreciated.
I'm made to believe that her father's occupation was a Bricklayers Labourer... John

John hi -- been following this thread with interest.-- I am not fully convinced
that you have the right "Bertha Walsh"

1911 census has her as 16y born Manchester -- makes1895 if had a birthday -- if not makes 1894;

the fact that fathers occupation not known on birth cert. you have --if right one -sets alarm bells ringing

Bertha could well have invented a father for it to look "good" on cert not illegitimate perhaps

is Leigh close enough to Manchester to be classed as " Manchester"
I live in the South East so dont know the area except on a map

Has her mother married a Walsh for Bertha to take that surname ??

records for the Home or workhouse she was in would certainly help - might even give her a birth date and if she was Bertha Elizabeth.

Just my thoughts

Mavis

Many thanks for that info Mike... I'm beginning to accept the fact that Bertha's mother also had to go into an Institution, possibly in Wigan, tho' her daughter went to Middlesborough..
Regards. John