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i know, how do you think we have felt for past years.
bet yu wish u had not taken this one on. lol!
it seems hillary jane has never been the problem, but the wanton
women before her.
still cant thank you both enough for all your hard work

i know, how do you think we have felt for past years.
bet yu wish u had not taken this one on. lol!
it seems hillary jane has never been the problem, but the wanton
women before her.
still cant thank you both enough for all your hard work

Can't wait for 5 30 am friday morning,I'm off to Menorca and leaving you 2 with it,aren't I nice.

Maryb

Lucky you! i need to get the birth certs for John c newsam and hillary jane newsam and hope that it sheds some light. have a good night ladies im at work at 6am so am gonna get an early night. :-D

Have a good holiday Mary!

Maybe someone could give an opinion re. the 1881 census above? I am wondering if Clara might be Caroline - stretching it a bit, but age and birthplace do match. I am struggling to find William and Clara Chapman before 1881- obviously would exclude the possibility if we found them 1871.. William is widowed 1891.

I agree with getting those birth certs. I am sure we will all be very interested to hear what they contain!

Jan

Re 1881 census Clara Chapman.
I can't find death or marriage for Clara Adcock and William Chapman.

No Clara Adcock /Chapman death between 1881/91 only the one for Caroline Adcock J/F/M 1891.

No Clara Adcock showing in 1871 census.
No Lizzie with mum Clara in 1871.

So is Clara/ Caroline the same person??

Maryb.

That's what I am thinking Mary. I was speculating that she was living (unmarried) with William Chapman in 1881, and is the Caroline Adcock who died 1891. In that case 'Clara' would have to be an error by the enumerator.
It is the only entry which matches for Lizzie as far as I can tell.
Jan

Sorry I havent been on...had to have a rest as it was doing my head in! Ordered the birth certs for Hillary and John Charles, so nows its a waiting game! I have tried contacting people who have trees with Percy David Simpson in to see if they know or have any info...long shot i know. I think Lizzie dies in 1912 and that percy poss marries again a year later to Isabel Heaps and has a son in 1915 also named Percy D Simpson but unsre if its him or not.

for interest this is the death of the son of that marriage

Name: Percy David Simpson
Birth Date: 22 Nov 1915
Date of Registration: Mar 1992
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 32
Page: 690

so I would certainly think the father is the same Percy :-)

there is no death at all showing at Ancestry for a Percy D Simpson but this will be him mistranscribed ( it definitely says D )

Name: Percy O Simpson
Birth Date: abt 1879
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1966
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 9c
Page: 694

so I think the 1912 marriage is definitely him



just looking at the Newsam angle, there is only one Newsam household in Warwickshire in 1891, in Leamington

Fred K A Newsam 66 living on own means ( it is Fred'k A Newsam )
Susannah M Newsam 52
Edith G Newsam 18
Alice M Newsam 16
Emma South 29


Marriages Dec 1862
Messeena Susannah Mary Gt Boughton 8a 450
Newsam Frederick Augustas Gt. Boughton 8a 450

likely previously married in 1851 in Southam


I am suspecting they may have had a solicitor son but I can't find them in earlier censuses ... in 1901 the household in Leamington Priors is

Frederick Newsam 76
Susanah Newsam 62
Francis Newsam 30
Edith Newsam 28
Alice Newsam 26
Annie Hobbs 23

all seem to be covered by 'independent means'

what of this Francis Newsam then ?


ah, maybe why I can't find them in English censuses ... Francis in 1901

Name: Francis Newsam
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick Newsam
Mother's Name: Susanah Newsam
Gender: Male
* Where born: Denbigh, Denbighshire, Wales

Births Dec 1870
Newsam Francis Ernest St. Asaph 11b 363

Marriages Dec 1911
Evans Susan G Chester 8a 838
Jones Elizabeth Chester 8a 838
* Newsam Francis E Chester 8a 838
Serdiville David Chester 8a 838

Deaths Mar 1955
NEWSAM Francis E 84 Stratton 7a 275


1881

Name: Frances E. Newsam
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick A. Newsam
Mother's Name: Susanna M. Newsam
Gender: Male
Where born: Chester, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Denbigh

Frederick A. Newsam 56 private income
Susanna M. Newsam 43
Frederick C. Newsam 14
William E. Newsam 11
Frances E. Newsam 10
Edith G. Newsam 8
Alice M. Newsam 6
Sarah Evans 24
Annie Roberts 18


where is Francis in 1891 ? sent off on the grand tour ?

there are two other sons ...


1891

Name: Frederick C Newsham
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Chester

Civil parish: Chelsea

occupation: SOLICITOR


Births Mar 1867
Newsam Frederick Charles Gt. Boughton 8a 363

Marriages Jun 1903
CANNON Harry Woolford Kensington 1a 420
* Newsam Frederick Charles Kensington 1a 420
Crane Maude Mary Kensington 1a 420
Hills Florance Rose Kensington 1a 420

Deaths Sep 1909
NEWSAM Frederick Charles 42 Warwick 6d 299


Daddy ? :-)

I am adding this here because your post on living relatives is simply part of this same search and has unfortunately resulted in people wasting a lot of time posting information that was already in this thread ...

Percy Jr's marriage

Name: Percy D Simpson
Spouse Surname: Danton
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1940
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1172

wife's details are different ( page number for one could be mistranscribed )

Name: Clara W Danton
Spouse Surname: Simpson
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1940
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1173

Name: Clara Winifred Simpson
Birth Date: 28 Feb 1918
Date of Registration: Apr 1988
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 32
Page: 1336

there are two children of the marriage ( the second is visible at freebmd )

I see likely marriages for both ... no obvious children for the one and several possible children for the other ( the surnames are common )

when I see that you have viewed these replies I will be happy to send the information privately, it will be late in the day on Tuesday as I am up very early because of a very long day of work to get through first ...

thank you all so much for your help! This could be daddy but still confused about the name Gordon! Im at work but will have a look in detail later.

KMF we can't do everything in a day !

I think I have solved the Newsam mystery very neatly ... don't you agree ??

... of course it is possible that one of the other Newsam brothers was also a solicitor but there is nothing on any census to show that ... their marriage certificates would say

Marriages Sep 1893
Newsam Frederic Charles Caistor 7a 1144
Marriages Jun 1903
Newsam Frederic Charles Kensington 1a 420
Newsam Frederick Charles Kensington 1a 420

Marriages Dec 1911
Newsam Francis E Chester 8a 838

William Newsom shows no occupation in 1891 and I can't find him after that

also can't find Francis in 1911

Deaths Mar 1955
NEWSAM Francis E 84 Stratton 7a 275

for info

Marriages Dec 1897
Newsam Edith Georgina Winchester 2c 261

Deaths Jun 1958
NEWSAM Alice M 83 Warwick 9c 928



.............. the Gordon mystery well, that may take some time :-D

Ok, the I have the births cert for John Charles and Hillary Jane!!!

John Charles Newsam born 1891 stratford
Father- Charles Newsam-solicitors clerk
Mother-Lizzie Newsam Formerly Adcock.

Hilary Jane Newsam born 1893 barnet
Father-Frederick Charles Newsam-solicitors clerk
Mother-Lizzie Newsam Formerly Adcock.

A massive massive thankyou to everyone that has helped me, mystery almost solved..... :-D

Well,Frederick Charles Newsam's great grandma was Countess Van Lear born Belgium 1775 married to Louis Messena.
There is a tree on Ancestry with his family and photos of the Countess and her hubby.

He married 1893 to 17 year old Gertrude Winifred Hayter born india 1876.
1901 she is with sister Penrose Wilson (born laura Penrose Hayter in India 74 her husband is called Edwin bryce Wilson (Captain).

1904 Gertrude Newsam married Edwin Bryce Wilson (sisters x husband)
Laura Penrose Wilson marries for 3rd time in 1903 to John Stewart Duckett.
So divorce came easy to this family.

The only Gordon in this family is Philip Cecil Harcourt Gordon 1864 died Jersey 1920 he was a surgeon in the Burma war,he married Wilhelmina Hayter sister to Gertrude and Laura.
Wilhelmina died 1900.

Its turning out to be a very interesting family don't you think.

Maryb.

oh, so not fair ... all that work to find nobility in someone else's family tree ... !!

:-P :-D

Really??? This is getting silly now!!!! Do you think this is why he didnt marry Lizzie because she was working class?

"The only Gordon in this family is Philip Cecil Harcourt Gordon 1864 died Jersey 1920 he was a surgeon in the Burma war,he married Wilhelmina Hayter sister to Gertrude and Laura."

"1904 Gertrude Newsam ( wife of Charles Newsam ) married Edwin Bryce Wilson (sisters x husband)"

well hmm, perhaps Charles Newsam's former partner partnered with his ex wife's sister's husband ... before their marriage ...

Philip CH Gordon was first married in 1891 in Newcastle upon Tyne but not to Wilhelmina Hayter ... ?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

do the quick search for

newsam divorce

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-3080740
Divorce Court File: 1521.
Appellant: Gertrude Winifred Morris Newsam.
Respondent: Frederic Charles Newsam.
Type: Wife's petition [wx].
Date: 1900

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=059-iorlag_3-2_4&cid=1-1-1-1-85#1-1-1-1-85

HAYTER, Charles George 1839-1890 IOR/L/AG/23/10/1 no.5089 [n.d.]
These documents are held at British Library, Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections
Related information: L/AG/23/10/2 No. 5089
Contents:
Madras Army, b 7 Aug 1839, d 1 May 1890 Surrey
m Flora Helen 1 May 1862 (b 8 Oct 1843, d 3 Jun 1919)
Julian F McL b 3 Feb 1863, d 11 Apr 1863
Flora Matilda b 3 Mar 1864, m 23 Mar 1885
Wilhelmina Constantia B b 19 Oct 1868, m 4 Aug 1888
Trevelyan Charles Helenas b 12 Aug 1870, d 14 Jan 1871
Laura Penrose b 28 Aug 1873, m 24 Jul 1893 to Edward Wilfred MARSHALL
Gertrude Winifred Morris b 15 Sep 1876,
m (1) 1893 to Frederic Charles NEWSAM divorced 28 Oct 1901
m (2) 10 Sep 1904 to Cpt E B WILSON
Violet Ethel Tyndall b 15 Sep 1878
Charles Norman Collen b 23 Aug 1881

Looks like that to me KMF.

Maryb.