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Sylvia - my thoughts entirely.....and Joseph being away a lot as well.....he did die in Caerleon but whether thy were "together" or not I don't know. ....and was Martha also Winifred's mother? :-S

I have a very suspicious mind!

Hilda was born in 1908, registered as the child of Sarah Sargent formerly Mogford and the father as William Sargent


BUT Sarah was then 54, and had apparently had no children other than William Walter (1881) and George Charles (1884)


That is a) a long break between children, and b) a very elderly mother



I'm wondering whether Hilda could in fact have been MARTHA's child after a liaison with William Sargent ........ and registered as Sarah's


this was not that uncommon in those days ................. mothers or married sisters were known to have registered illegitimate children of young daughters / sisters as their own.


There would then be nothing too suspicious in Martha taking care of her "niece".




How to prove it is the question, of course!

Just to nudge up....I think that as there have been views and no posts that you are all as stumped as me :-)

I have searched and searched and searched for any trace of them in 1901 or 1911. Charles George died before 1911 so not expecting to find him!!

I have a day off Friday so I might spend an hour in the library again....the problem with Winifred is that I am not sure she would show on electoral rolls until 1928 but I have not found Martha et all at any time (I am going to have to work out where in Caerleon the house was).

I don't understand why she didn't name a father on her wedding certificate but she didn't.

Jude

Well birth certificate arrived today.....if there could be a more confusing bigger can of worms I don't know where!!!!!

So Hilda Marjorie Sargent was born 14 September 1908 at 8, Uskside Caerleon (Martha's address at the time - and the address of the 1911 census).

The mother is named as Sarah Sargent formerly Mogford and the father as William Sargent

So Martha did have a sister Sarah (Ellen) who was born 1854. So that would tie in with Hilda being Martha's niece...but I can't find a marriage for William and Sarah and he stated in 1911 he was single.

Sarah Ellen - who would have been 54 in 1908 - was married to Charles George White, a butler, and they had two sons William Walter (1881) and George Charles (1884) (later a Major). In 1891 they are in Battersea but I can't find them in 1901. And I have only found George Charles - in Canada- in 1911.

So while I am looking all extra eyes welcome! This is a sideline to the main question - who were the birth parents of Winifred - but I can't help thinking they are connected.

Jude

you're getting there :-)

Well I have Hilda's marriage certificate and it's opening up a real can of worms!

Her father was WILLIAM Sargeant not Robert. But that means she wasn't really Martha's niece - unless the mother was one of Martha's sisters.....have now sent for the birth certificate.

And it lends creedence to my thought that Winifred Florence was the adopted daughter (at least in the 1911 census) of William....

Further update next week when birth certificate arrives!!

Thinking outside the box again :-(

In 1911 there is no relation to the head - she is just shown as adopted. Her marriage certificate and my mother-in-law's memories suggest that Joseph and Martha were her adopted parents. But, given the electoral roll entry as Winnie Sergeant, what if William was the adopted father?

Or....what if she was really the daughter of Harriett and Robert Sergeant and Martha brought up both her and Hilda Marjorie?

All all conjecture!

Don't expect any responses just thinking out aloud really

Jude

I thought I would resurrect this with info I have come across in the past year....

On the marriage certificate 06 September 1930 she is 28 years

So she could have been born between September 7th 1901 and September 6th 1902

She died at home at 30 Bolt Street Newport on 30 October 1954. Her age is given as 52 years

On the marriage certificate her address is shown as 76 George Street Newport. When in the library yesterday trawling electoral rolls from 1918 to 1976, the electoral roll for 76 George Street for 1930 had a Winifred Sergent.

If you go back to the 1911 census, where she is shown as Winifred Florence Ellis Adopted, two other members of the household were named Sergeant. Hilda Marjorie is listed as niece and William as a boarder.

Hilda Marjorie was the daughter Martha's sister Harriett Perrett Mogford, whose second husband was Robert Sergeant. But when I was looking at this yesterday, I realised that Hilda Marjorie was born 17 years after her sister when Harriett would have been 57. Not impossible of course but interesting.....the 1911 census entry for Harriett ties in with Hilda being one of four children of whom three were still living.

This is the 1881 census for Robert Sergeant - which makes boarder William (in 1911) almost certainly his brother

Name: William Sargent
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George Sargent
Mother's name: Virtue Sargent
Gender: Male
Where born: Christchurch, Monmouth, Wales
Civil Parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: Caerleon Village
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Newport
Sub-registration district: Caerleon
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5259
Folio: 61
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
George Sargent 54
Virtue Sargent 44
Robert J. Sargent 20
Clara Sargent 16
William Sargent 9
Margaret M. Sargent 7

So any thoughts on this conspiracy greatly appreciated :-)

Jude

Chris thanks. I had most of the info but not the record above! The 1934 link is excellent....it was only two years before she died, which begs the question how my mother-in-law can remember the things she has told me as she wasn't born until JUne 1933 .....

Groom's Forenames:Joseph (Bachelor. Brewer)
Groom's Surname:Stoddart
Groom's Age:25
Marriage Year:1888
Marriage Month:May
Marriage Day:3
Event Type:Marriage
Page:11
Place / Parish:Ystradyfodwg, St John
County:Glamorganshire
Bride's Forenames:Martha Jane (Spinster)
Bride's surname:Mogford
Bride's Age:22
Groom's Father's Forenames:Robert (Cooper)
Groom's Father's Surname:Stoddart
Bride's Father's Forenames:William (Station Master)
Bride's Father's Surname:Mogford
Record source:Glamorgan marriages transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru
(witnesses, William Stanton?, Isabel Parry)

(not much help, but not sure if you have above!)

Chris :)

http://www.caerleon.net/history/johns1934/

(Martha at Uskside, on above)

MC...this is Martha's husband Joseph

Name: Joseph Stoddart
Age in 1911: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Gloucester, England
Civil Parish: Abercarn
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: 51 Crown Street Crumlin Mon
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 22
Estimated Marriage Year: 1889
Occupation: Colliery Roadman
Registration District: Newport
Registration District Number: 587
Sub-registration District: Mynyddislwyn
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household Schedule Number: 211
Piece: 32037
Household Members:
Name Age
Lambert Chivers 33
Edith Cordelia Chivers 33
Muriel Novella Chivers 5
Edith May Chivers 2
William Ronald Chivers 1/12
Joseph Stoddart 46

He was a miner. He has put married 22 years 3 children of whom 2 have died and 1 is living

And this is their son

Name: Bertie Wyndham Stoddart
Age in 1911: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Penygraig, Glamorganshire
Civil Parish: Gloucester
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address: 18 All Saints Road, Gloucester
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Apprentice Engineer
Registration District: Gloucester
Registration District Number: 325
Sub-registration District: Gloucester Southern
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household Schedule Number: 27
Piece: 15310
Household Members:
Name Age
Sydney Augustus Stoddart 36
Ethel Bowden Stoddart 26
Mary Elizabeth Stoddart 2
Bertie Wyndham Stoddart 18

So I am as sure as I can be that she was adopted - obviously not formally in 1902. Of course I can't tell when this happened - as my mother-in-law believes there were two other children, one just months old, then I suspect it was later rather than sooner. Perhaps I'll trawl the 1911 census in the Caerleon area.....

Jude

Just looking at the image of the 1911, although it says Martha Stoddart is married there are no years entered for the length of time married. It also says she has 1 child born, still living - I suppose you've ruled out that Winifred could actually be her child?

Right ... scrub that idea.

Jane Britton married Richard Shea

found them in 1911
married 8 yrs in Cardiff.


Richard Shea 33
Jane Shea 31
Dorothy Leonora Shea 7
Phyllis Josephine Shea 4
Ann Britton 74- mother-in-law
Kate Parkin 24


but still a theory, just not this couple .
Sorry :-(

GB - no father on marriage cert :-(

ooerr Mike - worth looking at!

She married as Winifred Florence Stoddart and three of her four children were registered with her as mother as " Winifred Florence Mead formerly Stoddart". Only my mother-in-law's birth certificate shows her as Esther May Mead formerly Stoddart (Esther May Hopkins was Winifred's husband's first wife :-( )

So I really think that Ellis msut be her birth name...but can't find a birth registration that fits. I have trawled the 1901 census pages to see if it was a family near to Martha and Joseph - to no avail.

My mother-in-law regards Martha as her grandmother and remembers her well. She has told me stories of how her mother's real mother abandoned her mother and a brother - who became a lawyer??? - and a baby sister. But how do you follow this up? I am not even sure she knows that she has/had three half brothers and that her father's first wife died in childbirth...do I tell her :-S

So do I presume that no father is named on the marriage cert ?

What if ... and this is only an example ...

she was born before her parents married..

e.g

without knowing if Jane did marry Walter but ...
maybe


Marriages Mar 1903

Britton Jane - Cardiff 11a 514
Ellis Walter James - Cardiff 11a 514
Shea Richard James Cardiff 11a 514
Sparkes Mary Ann Cardiff 11a 514

but

daughter born just beforehand so registered in mother's surname

Births Mar 1903
BRITTON Winifred Florence - Cardiff 11a 443

Going back to 1911

Martha Stoddart 45 head
William Sargeant 40 - boarder
Winifred Florence Ellis 8 - adopted
Hilda Marjorie Sargeant 2 - niece


it doesn't actually state who she belongs to.

Ellis could be her adopted name

Would welcome any thoughts that anyone has! Broached this tricky subject some years ago with my mother-in-law...and she said that her mother had a brother and a baby sister who were all abandoned by their mother......maybe I'll have to ply her with alcohol at Christmas and see if she knows anything more :-)

OK so I finally bit the bullet and got the birth certificate. And it's bombed as I thought it might :-(

The address is 33 High Street Cefn Vaynor Brecon which isn't Barry.....

Mother is Elizabeth Ellis formerly Lloyd and father is John Ellis. I have found John and Elizabeth in 1901 with two children and in 1911 with same two children with one having died....and have found a death in Merthyr Tydfil that matches ....

So back to the drawing board :-(