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Right scotch that - Wilfred Henry is Charles Augustus' son and he married Mary Winifred Barratt in 1920........back to the drawing board

Well...another satisfying yuet frustrating visit to the library that maybe opens up more questions than it answers :-)

This time I literally trawled through every page (fortunately not a huge place)....In the Spring of 1925 William is with Martha Jane at 8 Uskside. By Autumn he is listed - seemingly quite close by - at The Hut Gasworks. And there he stays until 1927

Then in 1928 he has gone from there. At the same time Wilfred Henry Sargent appears at 32 Backhall Street. In 1929, he is joined by Winifred Mary Sargent and they remain there right up to the war. And then disappear.

Incidentally, in 1930 Hilda Marjorie Stoddart is with Martha at 8 Uskside - so she has already changed her name from Sargent to Stoddart although she married - presumably as she had to legally - as Sargent.

I also looked at the John's Directory for 1934, 1936 and 1941 (I think) and at 32 Backhall Street it is listed as Wm. Sargent Haycutter.

So next avenue is to try and prove that Wilfred Henry was actually William......

Jude

making some progress then

Mavis

Ha ha!

I feel another visit coming on to the library tomorrow :-)

Just trawling through that John's Directory 1934 posted aeons ago by Chris...at 32 Backhall Street is one William Sargant Haycutter!!

So I'll have a look at that address from 1925...still waon't explain why they suddenly parted after at least 14 years living together....but......

Jude

mmm Maybe I'll search - I don't usually on here!

Didn't get to see her this week - hubby ill and her - iller (sic!!!)

Jude

More questions, lol.

Chris :)

(I see somebody has Robert Dando 1907 Hilda M 1908, and another with Reginald in search all member trees here!)

edits

Reginald Death 2001 Newport M.

So the final certificate arrived today...and this dysfunctional woman Hilda Marjorie...born as daughter of William Sargeant and Sarah Sergeant formerly Mogford (lie on two counts...not daughter of Sarah and Sarah not married to William) who married as Hilda Sergeant....who declared herself to be Martha's daughter on Martha's death certificate gives birth to a son and the mother is Hilda Marjorie Dando formerly Stoddart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If nothing else, I think I have proved conclusively that Martha was her mother, not her aunt. And that Martha and William had a long-standing relationship. And that Martha was a born liar :-)

I still think Martha may well have been Winifred's mother too. And that William may well have been her father. But proving it - hell no!

But what happened to Martha and William after 1925???

NO but her husband declares himself to be a widower....there is little to suggest she is complicit in the other intrigue. But if she hadn't died then where is she in 1901 or 1911 come to that

Jude

are you sure that she died before 1901 census ???


Mavis

So Sarah Ellen's death certificate arrived today and it's not her. Wrong husband.

So all suggestions welcomed for a death between 1891 and 1901 for Sarah Ellen :-)

Jude

As you know a fair bit on Dando's, no harm in name dropping in conversation, sometimes jogs memory, even if later, when she has had time to digest things a bit...

Can see Bertie W 1911 with uncle Sydney Augustus.

(other Stoddart lot seem straight forward!, lol)

Chris :)

No Chris, although Joseph's death is registered under Caerleon District, the sub-district is Mynyddislwyn and the place of death was 16 Brachty Terrace Kendon Abercarn - somewhere else to trawl through sometime.

So in 1901 Joseph was a licensed victualler in the Rickard Arms in Ystradyfodwg. Martha and Bertie are there with him

By 1911, Martha has pitched up at Uskside the house she lived in until her death in 1936. And Joseph is now a miner boarding with a family in Abercarn where he apparently stayed until he died.

So what prompted the apparent schism and the change of occupation?

Harriett married Robert Sargeant in 1883 - so is that how Martha met William?

Having a pre-Christmas visit to my in-laws today - shall I ask her if she "knew" William Sargeant and Hilda Dando?

Jude

Well Done Jude, gradually coming together, was Uskside same address for Joseph 1946?.

Tangled web being unravelled, more to come, sounds like a Christmas soap plot, lol.

Chris :)

A quick update - more to follow in the week when hubby is back in work :-)

Well birth certificate confirmed Winifred Florence Mary not moine.

But the three death certificates I have are illuminating!

OK starting with Martha Jane who died 21 September 1936 at home 8 Uskside Caerleon....firstly she states herself to be the widow of Joseph Cornelius Stoddart (more later) and the informant was H.M. Dando Daughter :-) So that nails it that William lied when registering the birth of Hilda.

So then 22 February 1943 Joseph Cornelius Stoddart dies....so Martha wasn't a widow after all.......informant B.W. Stoddart, son. Bertie Wyndham the one living child declared in 1911 census.

And then to 29 August 1947 William Sargent of 30 Bolt Street Newport. Informant A.C. Sargeant brother. - Charles Augustus I believe. But 30 Bolt STreet was the home of Winifred and John James and was where she died in 1954. Which probably clinches it that he was her father....though I guess I will never ever prove it.

Jude

Ha ha - no Chris, certificates all paid for by me (my guilty pleasure) :-)

Yes I have both Hilda's and Winifred's marriage certs.

Winifred married as Winifred Florence Stoddart - in fact the only time the May comes up is on my mother-in-law's birth certificate in which her husband gave his first wife's Christian names of Esther May and on her death certificate; so it may have just been him!

Witnesses were Eliza J. T. Thomas - this is John James' married sister (the T is actually Florence!) and what looks like M. Doherty - no idea who this is/was

Hilda's witnesses were Martha and Salome Eliza Hughes who was Martha's sister. She drpped the Hilda and married as Marjorie. Ten years later there is a postscript entered amending Frederick Dando (father-in-law) to Frederick Percy and noting for Marjorie read "Hilda Marjorie"

Good way to spend anniversary Jude, in Archives, lol, hubby's ancestors after all!, reckon he'll be paying for all these certs., your present!!.

Good Luck...

(wonder what Marriage for Hilda reveals, or witnesses for Winifred, did you say you have that?)

I have given up on anything for Winifred :-(

Hilda and her husband are definitely first cousins according to the birth certificates...but believe me Caerleon (like areas of Pontypool such as Trevethin) are absolutely INCESTUOUS!!!!!

Seriously...I have side lines where brothers married sisters so what a tangled web my branched tree is :-)

1st cousin marriages are not unheard of....but they often have problems with miscarriages because of the close genetic ties...such as Charles Darwin (prophetically)

Jude

do you think that there could be some baptism's for Winifred
or Hilda some where.

bit odd for 1st cousin's to marry - though I do say it happens among
travellers at times .

my but what a mixed up family you have

Mavis

Well still waiting for all the death certificates...which stymies my plans tomorrow for another visit to the library as I wouldn't know quite what I was looking for lol!

Curiosity has gotten the best of me and I have sent for Reginald's birth certificate - it's diverging from the original query but it is so compelling :-)

Would be good to find out what happened to 8 Uskside...one year it was there and the next - gone! I might even take a visit tomorrow if time pans out ok (off again...this time for 33rd wedding anniversary :-) )

Well, lol, mystery never ends!...Caerleon holds a lot of answers, somewhere!.

Chris :)

(drink away!)