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Wilfred's first marriage came back. His occupation was coal hewer (ex army) - as I suspected and posted earlier :-)

So I am minded more and more that William was the haycutter....and that the memories of Bill and his wife Winnie are a little skewed.....

Jude

LOL!!! It happened last weekend as well - on another thread I posted that Joonie Cloonie had posted in the future :-)

I would just like to say that

" timezone all of its' own at the moment" !

is grammatically incorrect... the correct grammar is "its"

Shame on you GR!!

:-)

Jude

well done in finding what you have done , perhaps more will appear
for you if and when you return to this or you even find more out.

School records should give you a birth date for Winifred or medical
records - if any exist

we all keep plodding along in hope

Mavis

Good idea that, sends big 'pat on back', make your next ancestral query Cambs. based please, lol...

Chris :)

My only hope is finding a descendant now of Wilfred (on the William side of things)....second wife was over 20 years younger

And I haven't had chance to ask MIL if she remembers when her mother's birthday was.

But for the mo going to take a breather and then come back with fresh eyes and see if any of the certificates offer something I have missed :-)

Ultimately though, it's why we all do it!


Jude

Lol Jude, well you've given it your best shot for now, got the Certs, so don't feel too bad over it, something will turn up...eventually!.

Any local FHS group, or that newspaper where you could contact, mentioning a couple of names, or anything in a library locally?, could perhaps jog memory of a 'local'.

That sinking feeling gets us, I know, but, keep smiling on.

Chris :)

Well firstly, Wilfred's marriage certificate came today; he was a Gardner (sic). Can you stretch that to haycutter?

Ploughed through 33 years of John's Directory today. Martha is listed for the first time in 1932 when the format changed. So not sure if it is "commercial" or "residential". Wm (always abbreviated) appears in 1934 and is there until 1946 which is the last year the library has on display.Martha disappears the year after her death i.e. 1937

So still none the wiser

:-( :-(

Might just give up now!

Jude

This is getting to me - I'm dreaming about it :-)

I am going to try and get to the library and go through the John's/Kelly's Directories (and maybe pursue the finding of William in the St Julian's Hotel). But will wait for Wilfred's second marriage certificate to see if he married as a haycutter!

So I have a timeline of known (and assumed) things...

Joseph is licensee at Rickards Arms Trebanog from 1894. (fact)

He and Martha are there in 1901 (fact)

He is a miner (having been a cooper/brewer/victualler all his working life) in 1911 in Crumlin where he appears to have lived out his life until death in 1943 (fact)

She is well documented here :-)

So...was she pregnant with Winifred and moved away to give birth (supposition)?

Did this cause Joseph to relinquish the Inn (Supposition)?

Did she then start a new life in Caerleon - with or without registering Winifred's birth (intuition) :-)

8 Uskside seems to have been a "commercial" listing in John's directory; as does 32 Backhall Street. Am going to try and see when they first appeared as commercial listings.

This has been the most fascinating and frustrating trail! I would welcome any thoughts or suggestions about anything I might be missing or should look for.

Jude

To really rule this out....

The address is 33 High Street Cefn Vaynor Brecon which isn't Barry.....

Mother is Elizabeth Ellis formerly Lloyd and father is John Ellis. I have found John and Elizabeth in 1901 with two children and in 1911 with same two children with one having died....and have found a death in Merthyr Tydfil that matches ....

I have found the burial record which matches parents and address. Poor child was only four days old :-(

Well there are so many fabrications........:-)

that's 1 thing cleared up then definitely not the mother.

wonder where the surname of Ellis came from for Winifred

Mavis

Well sorted one thing! Sarah Ellen couldn't have been Hilda's mother as Sarah Ellen, wife of Charles George White died at Charing Cross Hospital on 10 July 1899. Registered as Ellen Sarah (grrrr)

Jude

I am not convinced....I have nothing to suggest Wilfred was a haycutter and a death certificate for William that says he was.

In 1911 aged 13, he was a dairyman's help. In 1916 he was in the army. On his army papers he says he is a collier (which fits with the address that he gave in Cwmcarn on enlistment). So not going to both risking the marriage crtificate because if he ever did become a haycutter I am sure he would have put either collier or soldier on the 1920 certificate. Perhaps the 1952 certificate to Dora might be a better buy!

Of course all of this in incidental to my original quest which, although I will never prove it categorically, I think I have solved i.e. Winifred's real parents were William and Martha!

Of for a calming pint and an Indian :-)

Jude

So Wilfred was known as Will or Bill at times ,does that clears that up then.

Just need more time to search for William now -- that's if you really need
to find him, but I suppose he could have been living with a partner

Mavis

Well today I scratched the itch, finished work early and went to the library :-)

I didn't believe this could get any more convoluted but it has!

Firstly let's go back a step to the article by Brian Blythe...there are extracts

Carefully round the corner where the road passes perilously near the front doors of the two houses (the traffic went both ways then) and down a slight slope to the four substantial red brick houses that my Grandfather built. He also owned the small house squeezed in at the left hand end where Mr and Mrs Danks and their son 'Peggy' lived. Peggy worked as gardener for my Grandfather and also for my Father. Grandad (and family) lived in the middle house. When my Father, Edwin, married Dora he moved to next door, the right hand one, and lived there for the rest of his life. In the house to the right lived Mrs Rossiter and her two thirty(?) year old sons Ron and Arthur. then two small cottages cement rendered and painted blue. These also were owned by my Grandad and these he left to my Father. Mr Davis lived here. Next door to him lived Bill Sergeant and his wife Winnie.

So using these as pinpointers, I reckon that the cottage that Bill and Winnie Sergeant lived in was 1 River View. More later......

So I have William up to 1927 - up to 1925 at 8, Uskside with Martha, 1926 - 1927 at The Hut, Gasworks, Usk Road. Then he disappears.

In 1928 Wilfred Henry Sargeant and his wife, Winifred Mary (she married as Mary Winifred) appear at 32 Backhall Street and are there until 1938. But when the electoral rolls resume after the war, they are no longer there.

At the same time, in John's Directory of Newport, William Sargent is shown at the premises of 32 Backhall Street as a haycutter.

So I trawled the electoral rolls from 1930 right up to 1947 looking for William in Caerleon Village. Nothing. But I found the Blythes, the Davies' the Rossiters and the Danks. Curiously at one point Hilda Marjorie and her husband are at 1, River View (just for one year). In 1945 the occupants of 1, River View are Wilfred Henry and Winifred Mary. They are there until 1950 after which I find Wilfred Henry alone, she having died at the end of 1950. In 1955 he is there with second wife Dora who he married in 1952.

So why can't I find both William and Wilfred at any time?

I did find a William Sargeant in 1945 and 1946 at The St Julians Hotel which is (now) a pub not far from Caerleon and particularly near to River View. Irritatingly, I can't find the St Julian's Hotel from 1946 because I think the ward must have changed and I just could not find it anywhere :-( So I couldn't check whether this William disappeared in 1947/8 after my William had died.

So I am no further along solving this mystery.

Jude

It could well be Mavis. Though I had assumed they somehow met in Frocester. She is in Frocester as a servant in 1871 (under the name Ellen Mogford) and in 1881 they are there as a married couple.

But it could be him....except for the age...more later. It says "Newport Barracks" situated in Pen-y-lan near Newport - I'd never heard of it called that before but it is where the TA Barracks are now situated on Barrack Hill in Allt-y-ryn. He appears to be a private in the army.

His year of birth ranges from 1850 to 1856 and his death certificate puts it at 1851. However, his parents married in Marylebone in 1855 and in 1861 are in Bourne Lincolnshire with three children Charles 5, Walter 3 and Louise 1. And there is only one birth to fit in Q4 1855

I have had one last try to find her death sending for a certificate in Strand for Ellen Sarah White (right age) in 1899 :-)

Jude

is this Charles White 1871 -- how he met Sarah Ellen ????


Name:
Charles White

Age:
15

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1856

Relation:
Private

Gender:
Male

Where born:
London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish:
Newport St Woollos

Ecclesiastical parish:
St Woollos

County/Island:
Monmouthshire

Country:
Wales

Registration district:
Newport

Sub-registration district:
Newport

ED, institution, or vessel:
Newport Barracks (1)

Household schedule number:
1

Piece:
5348

Folio:
9

Page Number:
13

Mavis

This is him in 1901 (as posted earlier)

NAME: Charles G White
AGE: 47
ESTIMATED BIRTH YEAR: abt 1854
RELATION TO HEAD: Brother
GENDER: Male
BIRTH PLACE: Marylebone, London, England
CIVIL PARISH: Fulham
ECCLESIASTICAL PARISH: St John
COUNTY/ISLAND: London
COUNTRY: England
STREET ADDRESS:

OCCUPATION:

CONDITION AS TO MARRIAGE:

EDUCATION:

EMPLOYMENT STATUS:

View image
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Fulham
SUB-REGISTRATION DISTRICT: North East Fulham
ED, INSTITUTION, OR VESSEL: 09
NEIGHBORS: View others on page
PIECE: 60
FOLIO: 76
PAGE NUMBER: 5
HOUSEHOLD SCHEDULE NUMBER: 31
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
NAME AGE
Walter R White 45
Elizabeth White 45
Charles White 12
Ethel White 9
Arthur B White 4
Emily C White 3
Charles G White 47

He is a widower, brother and no occupation

Jude

well it does look as if Sarah Ellen may have passed away without being
recorded , mind you she could be in a church register if not in GRO.

she was just recorded 1881 as born Bettws Newydd, Monmouthshire and 1891 just as Monmouth

I did try and find Charles G as a butler in 1901 -- no luck though

Mavis

Well the two death certificates came today - bang on for Charles George who appears to have died in the Epping Union Workhouse of TB

Third try at Sarah Ellen bombed.....so I really don't know what to think about her. She, on the face of it, totally and utterly disappears!

If she left Charles and "took up" with someone then I don't know where she was in 1901 or 1911 - her birthplace of Llanfrechfa certainly wasn't used. Two other deaths that vaguely fit are both in Yorkshire as White

:-S

Itching to get to the library but not sure when I will be able to....first day back at work today #cream crackered!!

Jude