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ArgyllGran

Well there you go... you've made my day! Obviously (at 84) I've still got a lot to learn!!

Many thanks

JennyP

Bear in mind that most people were illiterate at that time, and wouldn't know how their name was supposed to be spelled, or be able to spot if not written correctly.

Also there was no standard spelling of names - it could depend on what the clerk thought the name sounded like, and that would be affected by accent, etc.

Or one of the names in the transcription could simply be what the transcriber thought the (possibly hard to read) handwriting in the original looked like.

If the family did make a conscious decision to change their name (perhaps their name was mud, so to speak), it wouldn't need any official permission. They would just tell people that they were now Rudd.

ArgyllGran

Re: the Mudd/Rudd name change.

None of my contacts have seen any actual parish record of the change nor the (appropriate) family member whose marriage record shows the change in fact. One (of my contacts) suggested it didn't appear to faze the vicar at the time and so it persisted...!

Thank you. Jenny P



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ArgyllGran and ErikaH... Many thanks for your replies.

ArgyllGran - sorry to have been so slow getting back to you. Currently I'm in the process of attempting to discover whether any of my contacts have actually seen the parish record re. change of name from Mudd to Rudd. I myself would be interested to know the answer. In (or around) 1815... I wonder whether there would have been a legal requirement for such a change - or may be ecclesiastical?

Very interested in your (may be) postings re. the birth of James Andrews in 1808 in Danbury, Essex. Thank you for that. Another of my contacts has located reference to the marriage of a John Andrews to SARAH LEE, 6-10-1786 at Woodham Ferrers, Essex - not far from Danbury I believe. That would have put Sarah's age at c.42+ when she had James - not an impossible age I guess!

Your contributions (above) are the most likely I've been able to locate - I really hope so!. There are Andrews all over the place... dozens of them in the Sudbury/Great Cornard/Great Henny area, but I was never able to connect any of them completely with information that I had for James and Mary - my gggrandparents. The Rev. Margaret King & husband Graham at St. Mary's church, Great Henny were able to provide quite a bit of information - but only up to a point!

Thank you again. Jenny P

Brian -
you say "First marriage to MARY RUDD (formerly MUDD)".

Where did you get Mudd from? Have you seen the actual parish record?
Is one of the names a mistranscription?


As a long shot:

Mary Mudd
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Mary Mudd
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 11 Mar 1810
Baptism Place: Sudbury, St Peter, Suffolk, England
Father: William Mudd
Mother: Sarah Laurence
FHL Film Number: 950436


(Although I would have assumed she'd be married in the same church where she was baptised - but maybe not.)

??? Just posting as a maybe:

James Andrews
in the Essex, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Name: James Andrews
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Feb 1808
Baptism Place: Danbury, St John The Baptist, Essex, England
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Father: John Andrews
Mother: Sarah Andrews


FS version gives mms:

James Andrews
England, Essex Parish Registers, 1538-1997
Name: James Andrews
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 07 Feb 1808
Event Place: Essex, England, United Kingdom
Gender: Male
Father's Name: John Andrews
Mother's Name: Sarah Lee

GS Film Number: 001472208
Digital Folder Number: 004298486
Image Number: 00608

1841 census does not record birthplace info. It merely indicates whether the person was born in the county in which he/she was living at the time.

James was 37 when he died, which suggests that your estimate of birth year is accurate

Nine years since I last tackled this!! However I'm still very keen to locate, if possible, anyone who might have a record of my gggrandfather JAMES ANDREWS who was living in Sudbury, Suffolk at the time of his first marriage Also his place and date of birth, whether he had any siblings and particularly ... the names and any details of his parents!

The following information is confirmed:

Reference: JAMES ANDREWS
Born c.1808 - in Great Henny, Essex (according to 1841 census).
Occupation: Miller - initially in Sudbury, later at Great Henny water mill.
Father's name: John
First marriage to MARY RUDD (formerly MUDD) 26/8/1829 at St. Gregory's
church, Sudbury, Suffolk. Mary died 1835 age 27, burial at St. Mary's church,
Great Henny. Two live births of this marriage: Emma Ellen & Isabella Sophia.
Second marriage to MARIA TURP 7/2/1838 at St.Peters, Sudbury, Suffolk.
Two live births of this marriage: Susannah & Henry.
Both James and Maria were living at Wigan End, at the time of their marriage.
James' burial date is 18/2/1846 - at St. Mary's church, Great Henny, Essex.

Jax, Margee, Eileen, Keeley1973. Thank you all for your replies.

A thumbnail sketch of the James & Mary Andrews I'm trying to find:
Both were born c.1808 in the Great Henny area. Children born of the marriage that I know of: Emma Ellen born 1831 and her sister Isabella Sophia born 1834... both baptised in Great Henny. IMPORTANT FACT: Mary died in 1835 aged 27 and is buried in G.H. ... hence my guess as to her year of birth. ALSO... James is shown as aged 33 in the 1841 census.

In 1838 James (widower) married Maria Turp in St. Peters, Sudbury - I have a copy of their marriage certificate..

Soooo... my guess is that the most likely period during which James and Mary were married would have had to have been between the years 1826 (when both were only 18?!) and about 1832 after Emma Ellen was born.

Through IGI, BMD's and Bts I found two likely marriages - both at St. Gregory's church in Sudbury. One I was able to exclude and the remaing one: Mary Rudd... plus the confusing register records mentioned above! I'm inclined to think that that marriage was definitely in 1829 as the adjacent certificates plus the page header were dated 1829 also.

Hoping to be able to identify, or otherwise, THE Mary Andrews mentioned above ... I thought I'd try Genes Find Ancestors.

I don't know if any of the new info. above is likely to be of any use, but one never knows. Thank you again, I appreciate your interest.

JennyP (Australia)

That's quite interesting - I did not realise they rounded the ages. I (stupidly!) thought mismatches through the years were because they didn't actually know what age they were (or maybe husbands didn't realise what ages their wives were - lol). Must make it hard sometimes to sort our births on common names when they did this kind of thing.

The 1851 census also has a daughter Eliza aged 24 but she doesn't show up in 1841. Looks like the same family, Benjamin, Mary & Susan match.

Yes, the 1841 census rounded down the ages of those over 15 to the nearest 5 or 0 so that ages showing as 15 could be 15-19.

They may not have been twins they quite often rounded the ages down in 1841 I have seen what looks like 15 year old triplets...which would have been very unusual for such births to survive

Also no relationship on 1841 so they may not have been their children?

jax

It looks from 1841 census that Mary & James Andrews of Sudbury already have twins William & Harriott aged 15 years (also Benjamin 6, Mary 4 & Susan 2) - is this the right family Jenny? If so, I am not sure how much a clue this gives as it means they would be born in 1826 also. I am not sure how much there was in those days of children outside marriage so I guess they could have rushed it through in 1826 before the children were born but would they really have done it when heavily pregnant with twins, I am not sure? or maybe they would have left it until after (i.e the 1829 - but why such a gap?)

The only marriage I could see on FMP was the one I posted without a day so you could well be right Eileen.

When was the first child born ? that could also be a clue.. but not in all cases :-)

jax

Hi
, One of the entries on Family search says 26th August 1829... as the other says 1826 only I wonder if the submitter misread their own writing and transcribed 8/26 and forgot the year ie August 26th. Just a thought. Eileen

I'm not related either, Jenny, I just like doing look-ups.

Hello Jax... I surely have - like you wouldn't believe!! My last and probably final bright idea was that if I put a note in the Search Ancestors section the names just might twig somebodys memory! Oh well...!

Cheers for now and thanks. JennyP

No I am not related and I am sure Margee is not either.

If you want to find connections have you tried looking in the search trees for these people?

jax

Margee... Thanks for your reply. One of my problems!! ... unless there were two marriages - both between (a different) James Andrews and Mary Rudd -one in 1826 and the other in 1829... I'm stuck!! Incidentally, do you have a personal interest in these two people - are they ancestors of yours? If so perhaps we could exchange email addresses (mine, rather than my husband's) ... or keep going here.

I do have other relevant info. - for one thing on searching FHL British Film 952203 I found (and photographed) the record of a marriage on: 'no day, no month... in the year One thousand eight hundred and 26'. The certificate was on a page with 1829 at the top... other entries on the page noted 1829 in their record, so I'm assuming the rector had other things on his mind!

Should there indeed be a connection between us; James Andrews was my gg-grandfather, I would appreciate a further chat!

Regards... JennyP (Australia)