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We are agreed, hope the paperwork agrees too.

Thank you Maureen,

Dea x

Right. Harriet Eliza.

Family Search
groom's name: Richard Smith
groom's birth date: 1870
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 19
bride's name: Harriet Eliza Elggar
bride's birth date: 1871
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 18
marriage date: 09 Sep 1889
marriage place: Farnham, Surrey, England
groom's father's name: Edward Smith
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Robert Elggar

indexing project (batch) number: M01489-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 994436
reference number: IM27 IT1 P182 CN363
seems very probable.

And plain old Elizabeth:
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Elizabeth Elgar
Name: Elizabeth Elgar
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1894
Baptism Date: 21 May 1894
Father's name: Robert Elgar
Mother's name: Hannah Elgar
Parish or Poor Law Union: Old Brentford St George
Borough: Hounslow
9 Pottery Rd

Maureen

Edit:Oops. Sorry,Dea dear-I overlapped a bit there.

So, are we agreed then ?- the most probable theory is that:

Richard Smith married Harriet Eliza Elgar in 1889.

Harriet Eliza was a sister to Abraham Elgar who married Kate Hughes in 1904 and they had a child Nellie in 1905.

Abraham died in 1908 leaving Kate a widow and she found employment as a Servant with the Caswell's.

Not being able to keep Nellie with her 'in Service', she sent her to live with her Aunt and Uncle Richard + Eliza Smith (nee Elgar.)

It all seems to work, though the only way to be sure is to buy some certs.

Dea x

Hi, I agree Abraham had a sister Eliza as the 1881 census proves, but he had a sister Lizzie b.1895 on the 1901 census.
Therefore assumed Eliza had died, since Eliza and Lizzie (Elizabeth on 1911 census) are the same name to me. If, Eliza was Harriet Eliza known as Eliza it would make sense.

Edit: I like Dea's reasoning too.

1891
ELGAR, Robert Head Married M 44 1847 Gardener Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Hannah Wife Married F 43 1848 Agricultural Labourer Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Abraham Son Single M 17 1874 Carrier Parcel Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Hannah Daughter Single F 14 1877 Nurse Maid Domestic Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Sarah Daughter F 12 1879 Scholar Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Robert Son M 9 1882 Scholar Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Mary A Daughter F 6 1885 Scholar Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Ada Daughter F 3 1888 Brentford Middlesex
ELGAR, Harry Son M 0 (2M) 1891 Brentford Middlesex
RG number: RG12 Piece: 1032 Folio: 6 Page: 13 Registration District: Brentford Sub District: Brentford
Enumeration District: Ecclesiastical Parish: St Pauls Civil Parish: Ealing Municipal Borough:
Address: 6, Back Lane, Ealing, Brentford County: Middlesex
and

1901
ELGAR, Robert Head Married M 52 1849 Market Garden Labourer Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Hannah Wife Married F 51 1850 Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Robert Son Single M 18 1883 General Labourer Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Mary A Daughter Single F 16 1885 Brentford Middlesex
ELGAR, Ada Daughter Single F 14 1887 Brentford Middlesex
ELGAR, Henry Son Single M 10 1891 Brentford Middlesex
>>>>>>>ELGAR, Lizzie Daughter Single F 6 1895 Brentford Middlesex
RG number:RG13 Piece: 1194 Folio: 98 Page: 25 Registration District: Brentford Sub District: Brentford
Enumeration District: 30 Ecclesiastical Parish: St Georges Civil Parish: Old Brentford Municipal Borough:
Address: 9, Pottery Road, Old Brentford, Brentford County: Middlesex

1911
ELGAR, Hannah Head Widow F 61 1850 Isleworth Middlesex
ELGAR, Robert Son Single M 29 1882 General Dealer Brentford Middlesex
ELGAR, Henry Son Single M 20 1891 General Dealer Brentford Middlesex
ELGAR, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 16 1895 Factory Hand Packer Brentford Middlesex
RG number: RG14 Piece: 6922 Reference: RG14PN6922 RG78PN343B RD128 SD4 ED55 SN198

Registration District: Brentford Sub District: Brentford Enumeration District: 55 Parish: Brentford

Address: 9 Potery Road Brentford County: Middlesex

Robert died in 1910
Name: ELGAR, Robert
Registration District: Brentford
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death: 62
Volume No: 3A
Page No: 76

P.S. Hannah had 12 children, 8 living in 1911.

I like your theory,Dea!

Just in case it should become relevant:
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Kat Elgar
Name: Kat Elgar widow
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Spouse Name: Frederick Jones
Spouse Age: 32
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 02 Feb 1913
Parish: St Laurence, New Brentford
County: London
Borough: Hounslow
Father Name: Kish Henry Hugher
Spouse Father Name: George Jones

Her brother's marriage?
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Daniel Francis Hughes
Name: Daniel Francis Hughes
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Spouse Name: Nellie Maud Evans
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 30 Apr 1916
Parish: St John the Baptist, Isleworth
County: London
Borough: Hounslow
Father Name: Kirk Harry Hughes
Spouse Father Name: George Evans

Maureen

How about this then?

Abraham DID have a sister called Eliza - and she is about the correct age !

1881 England Census
about Abraham Elgar Name: Abraham Elgar
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Father's name: Robert Elgar
Mother's name: Hannah Elgar
Gender: Male
Where born: Isleworth, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Isleworth
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address: 9 Hundreds London Road
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Isleworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1339
Folio: 22
Page Number: 37
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Elgar 32
Hannah Elgar 30
Eliza Elgar 8
Abraham Elgar 6
Hannah Elgar 4
Sarah Elgar 2


RG11; Piece: 1339; Folio: 22; Page: 37; GSU roll: 1341326.
...................

Eliza is not with her family on 1891, BUT.........


Marriages - 1889:

William John Balchin Jul-Aug-Sep 1889 Farnham Surrey
**** Harriet Eliza Elggar Jul-Aug-Sep 1889 Farnham Surrey
****Richard Smith Jul-Aug-Sep 1889 Farnham Surrey
Annie Lottie Wells Jul-Aug-Sep 1889 Farnham Surrey

It's looking possible again !!
Dea x

Hi, I have not been able to connect them yet either.
Possibilities being considered.
Nellie is daughter of Ms Elgar. Birth certificate required, I think.
Richard Smith's brother/sister married an Elgar.
Eliza Smith was Eliza Elgar, since she was born in Brentford, but not Abraham's sister as Lizzie is too young.
Nellie is not a niece, but is a 1st or 2nd cousin or the daughter of a friend who has always been referred to as niece.

Off out now. Will check in later

Sorry - had to go out!

Good find Pam for the 1911 but it makes the theory I was working on earlier less likely!

I was looking at Abraham:

He appears to have died in 1908:

Deaths Dec 1908
ELGAR Abraham 34 Brentford 3a 43

..........

'IF' he married Kate in 1904:

Marriages Jun 1904
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coleman Sarah Mary Brentford 3a 324
ELGAR Abraham Brentford 3a 324
Hughes Kate Brentford 3a 324
SMITH Joseph Brentford 3a 324

Then I think I have Kate as a widow on 1911:

CASWELL, K G Head Widow F 88 1823 Private Means Manchster Lands VIEW
CASWELL, K M J Daughter Single F 17 1894 Twickenham Essex VIEW
CASWELL, Leonam Son Single M 22 1889 Manufacturer's Clerk Manchester Lands VIEW
LORCEBERG, Charles Boarder Single M 28 1883 Merchant Manager Switzerland VIEW
SIDLER, Paul Boarder Single M 26 1885 Merchant Clerk Switzerland VIEW
ELGER, K Servant Widow F 29 1882 General Servant Banham Berkshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6813 Reference:
RG14PN6813 RG78PN340 RD128 SD1 ED8 SN117

Registration District:
Brentford Sub District:
Isleworth Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Isleworth

Address:
Worcester Lodge St Margarets Road St Margarets County:
Middlesex


No 'Nellie though, but there wouldn't be if she was living with her Aunt + Uncle?

Doesn't seem to connect to the Smiths though??

Dea x

george 1901
ELGAR, James Head Married M 53 1848 Machine Boot Maker
Lymington
Hampshire VIEW
ELGAR, Hannah Wife Married F 57 1844
Tardebigge
Worcestershire VIEW
ELGAR, George Son Single M 19 1882 Carpenters Apprentice
St Georges Hanover SQ
London VIEW
ELGAR, Annie Daughter Single F 18 1883 Dairy Accountant
St Georges Hanover SQ
London VIEW
ELGAR, Harry Son Single M 16 1885 Plumbers Apprentice
St Georges Hanover SQ
London VIEW
ELGAR, John Wilkes Son Single M 15 1886 Ironmongers Errand Boy
St Georges Hanover SQ
London VIEW
ELGAR, James Page Son Single M 13 1888
St James Westminster
London VIEW
ELGAR, Chas Thos Son Single M 12 1889
Ealing
Middlesex VIEW
RG number:
RG13 Piece:
1194 Folio:
28 Page:
47

Registration District:
Brentford Sub District:
Brentford Enumeration District:
27 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Marys

Civil Parish:
Ealing Municipal Borough:
Address:
7, Kerrison Place, Ealing County:
Middlesex

hi maddie ye i noticed that maybe they didnt put her down as she was living with her aunt

hi polly/poppet
strangely the 1911 census says they had no children
maddie

Name George Elgar
Year of Marriage 1904
Quarter of Marriage Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Brentford
Registration County Middlesex
Spouse's Surname Only available for records after 1912
Volume Number 3A
Volume Page 148

1911 census

Household information
Address 33 Devonshire Road S Ealing
Parish Ealing
Town S Ealing
Type of Building Private Ho.
Number of Rooms Five
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN6898 RG78PN343B RD128 SD4 ED31 SN155
Administrative County Middlesex
Registration District Brentford
Registration Sub District Brentford
Enumeration District 31

Householder 1
Name George Elgar
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender M
Age 29
Estimated Year of Birth 1882
Occupation Carpenter and Joiner
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Industry Builder and Decorator
Place of Birth Middlesex Westmouth

Householder 2
Name Emma Louisa Elgar
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender F
Age 27
Estimated Year of Birth 1884
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Ealing Middlesex

there are 2 elgar / smith marraiges for her parents
BMD Search result details

Civil Registration event: Marriage
Name: ELGAR, George
Registration District: Help Brentford
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1904
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 3A
Page No: Help 148
MarriageFinder™: George Elgar married one of the following people Help


SLADE, Louisa Emma view record


SMITH, Eva Jane view record


WELL IT CAN'T BE THIS ONE
BMD Search result details

Civil Registration event: Marriage
Name: ELGAR, Abraham
Registration District: Help Brentford
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1904
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 3A
Page No: Help 324
MarriageFinder™: Abraham Elgar married one of the following people Help


COLEMAN, Sarah Mary view record


HUGHES, Kate view record




SMITH, Joseph

Hi Everyone, Nellie is in Portsmouth with her aunt and uncle the Smiths. Have fun.

name: Nellien Elgor
event: Census
event date: 1911
gender: Female
age: 6
birthplace: Brentford, Hampshire
record type: Household
registration district: Portsmouth
sub-district: North End And Buckland
parish: Portsmouth
county: Hampshire

Hi Maddie
No have not gone that far yet. That is my next port of call if nobody can help. It all comes down to expense.
Dave

do you have her marraige certificate showing fathers name and occupation
maddie

hi Dea
Nothing else known other than she married Arthur William Lawrence in 1924.
Any help?
Dave

possible marriage

Name Nellie Elgar
Year of Marriage 1924
Quarter of Marriage Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Brentford
Registration County Middlesex
Spouse's Surname Lawrence
Volume Number 3A
Volume Page 175

Spouse Match: Nellie ELGAR married Arthur M LAWRENCE

Name Arthur M Lawrence
Year of Marriage 1924
Quarter of Marriage Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Brentford
Registration County Middlesex
Spouse's Surname Elgar
Volume Number 3A
Volume Page 175