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dee...The entry you have found is the same one that i put on th top of page 2 of this thread...Marys maiden name was not entered on the record.

I think its perfectly feesable that Mary and George would have lied on the 1911 census about the amount of years married....my own gr grandparents did exactly the same .....5 children born before the marriage, so they added on 7 years..I have the cert. that proves different.


Beginning to wonder if Mary was a little liberal with the truth......... if the christening record for marylebone for Mary Sophia Tubb posted by Tempest is in fact your Mary, then she has been married before to a John william Tubb......no wonder we can`t find her birth record.

Think that is the same Mary Sophia who became Scivier when her mother married George and then married Stanley Percy White in 1896...the fact he is witness at her brothers marriage really does prove that.

Did Mary say she was spinster on her marriage to George?


Nicky

So this is presumably her prior marriage...???

Marriages Jun 1874 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSELL Mary Kensington 1a 368
FARRINGTON Harry Kensington 1a 368
Seeley Mary Ann Kensington 1a 368
Tubb John William Kensington 1a 368



Nicky

possibly your Mary with father Benjamin?

When asked at her marriage for fathers name she would have said Benjamin....as her surname was Tubb at the time, thats what was written down.

ANSELL, Benjamin Head Married M 48 1813 Boot Maker
Ramsgate
Kent VIEW
ANSELL, Sophia Wife Married F 38 1823
Poplar
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Benjamin Son M 9 1852 Scholar
Limehouse
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Mary Daughter F 7 1854 Scholar
Limehouse
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Robert Son M 4 1857 Scholar
Barking
Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG09 Piece:
1055 Folio:
116 Page:
32

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
1 Stratford Enumeration District:
10 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Johns

Civil Parish:
All Saints West Ham Municipal Borough:
Address:
2, Angel Place, All Saints West Ham County:


Nicky

The marriage..

John William Tubbs { chimney sweep}
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Spouse Name: Mary Ausells { Ansell}
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 May 1874
Parish: St Paul, Paddington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John William Tubbs
Spouse Father Name: Benjamin Ausells { image says Ansell}

Benjamin is a Boat Builder


Nicky

But why on two certificates it has the name Tubess and on Henriatta's birth it would say nee Ansell if that was her real maiden name.

In all census returns she is born in Barking Essex and not Limehouse Middlesex.

Sorry to sound so negative.

Are George and Mary down on marriage cert as batchelor and spinster?

Maryb

Yes, Mary and Nicky they are both listed as Spinster and Bachelor. It just gets more weird doesn't it.

Another thought,
I can't tell whether Mary was illiterate or not.
On the marriage certificate in the part where it says this marriage was solemnized between us: It says:
George Scivier his X mark
Mary Tubess (although it's in exactly the same writing as on the rest of the certificate.)
What that means I don't know.
:S

I am going to the Barking archives to-morrow I will take the details with me the archiver there is brill.

In the old days would they have asked a woman if she had been married before or could she just have been asked if she was a spinster (and in Mary's case perhaps lied).
Or, perhaps Mary was the result of a one-night stand by her mother and gave Benjamins name if he was the man who brought her up? That might explain why there doesn't seem to be a birth certificate. She may have been led to believe that Benjamin was her dad and her birth certificate would have had just her mothers name on it. (This last little gem is courtesy of my son Tom!)

Many thanks Joan, all this help from everyone is heartwarming. Do you want me to e-mail the certificates to you?

Well I have looked at both the certs Dee talks about but the thing that sticks in my mind is that on the marriage George says his father is deceased but it has his profession. Written down under the father of Benjamin, for Mary, it only has Deceased.

George and Mary also had a daughter Elizabeth born 1886 and died in 1887 aged 2 years.

Bap
Name: Elizabeth Scivier
Mother: Mary Scivier
Father: George Scivier Carman
Birth: abt 1886
Baptism: 10 Mar 1886 - Wandsworth St Anne, Surrey
Address Dunti? Hills

Death
Elizabeth Scivier
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1887
Age at Death: 2
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 418

Hi Dee, It seems very likely to me that Nickydownsouth's theory is correct. Mary Ansell's brother, Robert, was born in Barking. Maybe she believed she was also born there, or else she just preferred to say she was born there rather than Limehouse.

Mary Ansell's mother was called Sophia, which would tie in with her daughter being given that as a second name. Her father, Benjamin, died in 1865 (just looking at the BMDs).

On the 1881 census John William Tubb is living with his mother. He claims to be married but there's no wife living with him. So it's possible that Mary married George Scivier bigamously. She may have been scared to use the name Ansell again, so used Tubb but disguised it a bit. And claimed that was her maiden name as she wouldn't want her children to know she'd been married before. Just my thoughts.

Thanks Christina,
Joan is going to the Barking archives tomorrow so fingers crossed she may turn something up. She did say the archivist is extremely good, so here's hoping.

Did you say Mary signed her name with an X on the marriage certificate?

If she actually signed her name maybe you can you can get a photocopy of the original, instead of the copy the GRO made out (maybe from Croydon) Then you could compare the Mary part of her signature to see if it could be the same person who married John William Tubb. That marriage certificate is on Ancestry's London Marriages.

I must admit I thought that maybe Mary had been married before as we could'nt find a birth in the right place. Perhaps George did'nt know she had been married before!! and with her father being dead he would'nt have found out. But what about her mother??

There's no sign of her mother on the 1871 census, and there's a Sophia Ansell death in 1870 in West Ham. Plus a death for Benjamin Ansell 1865 West Ham.

Actually, I can't find any of the Ansell family on the 1871 census - not even Mary.

RG10; Piece: 1305; Folio: 60; Page: 10

1871 census

Benjamin Tubb 1807 born Oxfordshire Ag Lab
Mary Tubb 1819 born Buckinghamshire
Mary Ann Tubb 1853 born Harrington, Middlesex
Thomas Tubb 1860 born Harrington, Middlesex
Alice I Tubb 1868 Grandau born Harrington, Middlesex

I thought i found Mary in 1871 living in Marylebone working as a servant ,as was John William Tubbs...not the same household but Marylebone which is probably how they met.


Chrisitinas description of my theory is absolutley spot on.....I just gave you the information and hoped you`d come to your own conclusion.

I had also found John william Tubbs with his mother in 1881, but stating he`s married with no sign of a Wife.........



Nicky

No, Mary didn't sign her name, there isn't even an X as a mark. It just says Mary Tubess in the handwriting of the writer.