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Mmmm

Name: William Traves
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Traves
[Martha Chapman]
Gender: Male
Where born: Warrington
Civil parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Salford
William Traves 23
Mary Ann Traves 28
Joseph Chapman 53 >>>>>Lodger>>>>Born Salford
Martha Chapman 33 >>>>Lodgers wife>>>>Born Cheshire Stockport

This is mary Ann with her parents. The enumerator has made a bit of a mess of the entry. She gives Barton as her birthplace in every census. I can't find a marriage to William Travis.

You say in your first message that this is not the correct family. In your second message you say that it is correct. But quite frankly apart from the names there is nothing else to confirm it.

Mary Ann Chapman
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Constantine
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Barton Upon Irwell
Civil parish: Barton Upon Irwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catharine
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Chapman 44
Martha Chapman 44
Sarah Johnson 58
Elizth Chapman 14
Ellen Chapman 11
Mary Ann Chapman 9
Thos Chapman 2
James Consterdine 70 >>>>>Father in Law
Hannah Johnson 75 >>>>>>Lodger

I don't look at PM's when the info should be on the thread.

Who did ELLEN (your grandmother) marry? When and where did she die?

Please just give the answers to those two points.....nothing else

The 1911 that Astra posted gives Ninny (as in Mary Ellen) marrying a Hammond and having a daughter Emily (1905).
The Mary Ann Wells in 1911 was born in 1843 in Barton, and the marriage to Edward was only 7 years previously, so the children are hers.
In 1901 Edward Wells was a lodger with her and her children, and she was Mary Ann Richards, widowed.
There is a very obvious Mary Ann Chapman born in Barton in 1843 in 1851 and 1861 censuses.

This looks like the family in 1891, with Edward Wells (as in Edward Henry John) already there:
1891 England Census
Peter Richards
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Richards
Gender: Male Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Salford Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Lancashire Country: England
Registration district: Salford Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 19 Piece: 3222 Folio: 82 Page Number: 42
Peter Richards 52
Mary Ann Richards 42
Robert Travis 16
William Travis 13
Mary Ellen Richards 7
Alice Crookes 60
Henry J Wells 19
George H Wells 17
Ada Warren 20
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3222; Folio 82; Page 42; GSU roll: 6098332.

Sorry, Astra, you had posted 1851 just above.

Marriages Mar 1903
Richards Mary Ann Salford 8d 72
Wells Edward John H Salford 8d 72

This looks like Thomas Hammond marriage to Ninny
Marriages Mar 1902
Hammond Thomas Jacob Salford 8d 82
Richards Mary Ellen Salford 8d 82

and Emily's birth:
Births Mar 1905
Hammond Emily Salford 8d 87

Death(if birth late registered) ?
Emily Lomas
Birth Date: Nov 1904
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1987
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 39
Page: 712

but is Mary Ann Richards Mary Ann Chapman???

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
RICHARDS Peter BETHEL Mary A Salford St Bartholomew Salford C43/7/250


EDIT

yes she was but father is Richard

Marriage: 21 Apr 1890 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England
Peter Richards - (X), 52 Labourer Bachelor of 32 West Union St.
Mary Ann Bethel - (X), 48 House Keeper Widow of 32 West Union St.
Groom's Father: Thomas Richards, (deceased), Soldier
Bride's Father: Richard Chapman, (deceased), Labourer
Witness: M. Morgan; Ellen Elliott, (X)
Married by Banns by: G. W. Petherick
Register: Marriages 1888 - 1891, Page 125, Entry 250
Source: LDS Film 1786464

pm from William

"The family don't know who his 1st wife was, that's what I'm tring to find out.
An earlier post suggests that he lived at 193 Oldfield Rd & having looked at the census for the period it does add together but, it put's the head of the household's surname a Wells, his relationship to William is stated as father, but it's confusing because Williams surname was definitely Chapman.
I've tried to check back from there but have had no luck as yet."


so given that Mary Ann Richards / Bethel / Chapman married Edward Wells, all that is wrong is that the enumerator described William as 'son' rather than 'step-son'

Why send PM's?

And why............please.....don't you answer the simple questions which have been asked.

They are asked for a reason......not just to pass the time...............

I traced Mary Ann Bethel/Richards/Chapman back to her father Richard Chapman as shown in the 1851. I haven't found the link to Bethel as yet. With such an unusual name it should stand out but I'm jiggered if i can locate it.

Unless this is the family. EDIT: Not this one he is a widower in 1901

Mary Bethel
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Travis Bethel
Gender: Female
Where born: Macclesfield, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Blackley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
Travis Bethel 42
Mary Bethel 48
William T Bethel 18
Mary A Bethel 15
Minnie Bethel 13

Mmmmm

William Chapman married Lillian Rowlands who died in 1954. The date on her death cert means she was born in 1905.

Lillian Chapman
Death Registration Month/Year: 1954
Age at death (estimated): 49
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10f
Page: 394



Ellen Chapman (William's daughter born 1909) married Thomas Rowlands in 1927

Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>Chapman Ellen Rowlands Salford 8d 848
Potts Albert Smith Salford 8d 848
>>>Rowlands Thomas Chapman Salford 8d 848
Smith Minnie Potts Salford 8d 848


Were Thomas and Lillian brother and sister?

1911


ROWLANDS, William Head Married
6 years M 29 1882 Hawker Salford Man VIEW
ROWLANDS, Rhoda Wife Married F 27 1884 Salford Man VIEW
>>ROWLANDS, Lilian Daughter F 6 1905 Salford Man VIEW
>>ROWLANDS, Thomas Son M 3 1908 Salford Man VIEW


Address:
42 West Union Street Salford

Ellen Rowlands died in 2002

Ellen Rowlands
Birth Date: 18 Apr 1909
Death Registration Month/Year: Aug 2002
Age at death (estimated): 93
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Register number: TC68
District and Subdistrict: 0111C
Entry number: 254


Which matches this birth registration

Births Jun 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAPMAN Ellen Salford 8d 110

William, our poster, is William Rowlands, which confused me, but now seems to make sense.
However, I would like to know his parents and grandparents to try and tie everything up.

If it is correct then it means that William was Brother in Law to his daughter and Uncle and Grandfather to her children. Must have been confusing!

Had me puzzled too. But with this scenario it makes more sense.

But I don't think our poster is actually called William!

as I asked before

what age does he give on the certificate of his marriage to Lillian please and what was his full name on the certificate

are you sure your uncle's middle name of Tranter was after your grandfather and not after his mother's maiden name (see marriage of William Chapman & Ellen Tranter)

Have you found any evidence to sat William middle name was Tranter and not (eg) Thomas

I think I am getting confused with generations here as we seem to be flitting back and forth. Can we go back to basics and produce a timeline please

father (unnamed) - parents - Thomas Rowlands and Ellen Chapman married 1927????.
Who exactly was Ellen's father on the certificate and his occupation and Ellen's age (17/18 as in 1909 birth above?)

Ellen's parents from her birth certificate???

Ellen Chapman (Sheerness/Salford about 1909) married Thomas Rowlands in 1927, as Astra put.
Their son was Derek born in Salford in 1931 and is your Father?
You are then Thomas T Rowlands born in 1951.
No, you are called William. I have gone wrong again.
(But it fits in with Mother's maiden name that you gave earlier, and age also)

We cross-posted.

I think he is Thomas T. Not William. Derek and Catherine don't appear to have had a son named William that I found anyway. I went back to Ellen to try and sort out the Rowlands issue because it was confusing me.
I have had another PM from 'William' which I was just about to reply to telling him that he must post on the thread and read the information that is posted more thoroughly. He seems to be fixed on the idea that Mr. Wells is William's father and can't seem to understand that it is only the person that William's mother married. I'm 95% sure that we have the correct family. It's just a case of encouraging 'William' to get some certs. to prove it.

Hi all in Particular Astra,

I've just come back from seeing my father & my Aunt who are both 80 and have a liitle more information, which may help me in my search.

As a previous post suggested my Aunt & Grandmother were not born in Sheerness, they were born in Salford Manchester, they used to go on Holiday to Sheerness when my Aunt Mary & Gran Ellen were children, this apparently went on until my Dad was a child.
The details that were posted about the 1911 census for 193 Oldfield Road is also 100% correct.
Lillian Rowland(s) was indeed my Grandfather Thomas Rowlands's sister, how she came to marry William Chapman is still in question.
Williams sister did indeed marry Thomas Hammond, and the family have proof of this marriage, I personally do not have this information yet. But will have in the next 2 weeks when I visit an elderly family member.
I have also found out that the true family surname is Rowland the "S" was added for some unknown reason over the years.For Astra my full name is William Travis Rowlands, hence the confusion about Travis & Tranter.
With regards to the Mary Ann Wells connection, I have thought that she was William's mother who remarried, but what threw me was the statement that Edward Wells who is only 8 years older than William is stated as his Father, not Stepfather as you would expect. I will research this further.
Thanks to all for their advice & telling off & hope I can still get assistance from all.
Regards

Addition.
Just read all the posts for which I thank you all very much.
I hope this info clears things up a little & clarifies why I was so confused.
My Full name is William Travis Rowland(s) b 1951 March Salford.
Father Derek Rowland, b1931 his Father Thomas Rowland b1908 d1953, mother Ellen Chapman b1909, d2002
Thomas Rowland's father William Rowlands b1882, mother Rhoda Taylor b1884.
William Chapman did indeed marry Lillian Rowland 1933, Lillian being Thomas's sister. My Grandmother Ellen Married Thomas Rowland in 1927.
So I think you can see why I was so confused, originally I thought that William's marriage to Lillian Rowland was incestuos, but realised later they were not blood relatives, but, it still doesn't seem right to me.
The address at 42 West Union St is correct also.
Again thanks to everyone, the confusion is getting clearer.
Regards