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yeah...got the right dennis and catherine,erin.....have followed back from my grandad..all childrens names and ages and all dates tally. also all dates match. got copies of death cert for dennis,and marriage certs for both his marriages.i also knew from my late dad,where his family lived in tyldesley...so everything aok! lol janey,not like you to slip up! i just noticed how catherine is spelt above...with an "a" instead of "e"...thats prob. why i was getting 0 matches when i tried! on the wedding cert of denis to catherine,denis' father ISNT denis..its joseph....so denis wasnt named after his father either,erin

I need to put a bag over my head. On page 3 (or was it 2 ...) I said that this was the 1861 census -- of course it was the *1851* census, I've fixed it in that post now for the record:

Name: Catharine Rice
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Ireland
Occupation: house servant

Civil parish: Louth
County/Island: Lincolnshire
- and also Bridget Rice

Elaine....Are you sure you have the correct family..!! Ive been after wondering why Dennis and Catherine didn't name the "apparent first son" after Dennis'father...Dennis....
Peter appears as eldest (after Caths father) but that is open to speculation as to whether he was the First Born...I have found a Dennis Mc.Mahon b 1862 Reg.Wigan...year after their marriage.....

hahaha...its my family rose,and i've TOTALLY lost the plot! there folk joining the family that i never even heard of!! and they spell their names all sorts of ways,to make it even more confusing!

ah sorry Janey lol I have been following this intermittently but have lost the plot ;)

did see it on page 3 janey,but i thought you wanted me to check if john did marry gertrude? y u think they werent a couple? i'm still looking for mary ann...found a mary ann greatrex,b.1844 in derbyshire(bakewell)but her parents were thomas and elizabeth

Rose ... I posted that quite a while back ... check page 3 ... I don't think they were a couple; there's a Hannah Greatorex death that would match.

Marriages Jun 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GREATOREX John Belper 19 299

RICE Gertrude Belper 19 299

dont know how but i got onto international genealogical index! put in surname greatrex and spouse surname rice...ploughed thro hundreds of names till i got to G. there 3 johns married on diff. dates-----then i put rice in first and john in spouse box.....had to go even further down to the R's. found gertrude rice and her wedding was same date and place as one of the johns....6th June.1838. Duffield. Derbyshire. so they were obviously married

It was probably a mistranscription thats why. but if you are using this site I dont think it allows for those...maybe wrong

jax

i spelling with an e not an a .thought it would b simple with an unusual name,but its spelt all ways! will carry on plodding! i up till round 1am every day...its so exciting when something is found! i'm also trying to do my husbands family,but that wholly(we think!)in ireland

what site were you using if its this one the spelling has to be correct?

catherine is spelt catharine on that census

we get our census's from ancestry they dont worry too much about spelling

jax

remember seeing that on page 2....i must admit,i've read and re-read everything thats been put down! i am so humbled that people would go to such lengths to help me. am now looking re mary ann greatrex(will try the other spellings too) but i dont know how you find them--i put catherine rice 1837 in 1851 census and it said no matches!

Remember this on page 2:


This person in 1861 is the right age; father apparently living but not present:

Name: Catherine Rice
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Margaret Rice
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: Lancashire

Margaret Rice 57
Catherine Rice 23
Charles Brookes 80
Eliza Cardwell 64
Mary Ann Greatrex 15 granddaughter

(could match with Peter Rice the night watchman)


If the granddaughter's mother could be identified, and her marriage found, her father's name should be on the certificate -- to try to rule that family in or out.

I spent years ferreting out evidence when I was a refugee lawyer, figuring out all the possible angles to come at things from, so that's the angle there. ;)

"hands up in the air"!! you've lost me....that grand-daughter being mary ann greatorex? i'll see if i can see any marriage cert or baptism for her. should be easier with an unusual name(on my other side i was searching for a smith!) you must have the patience of a saint janey! i find myself going into the same things over and over,forgetting where i saw things,etc i have loads of scrap papers with stuff jotted down,then cant remember wot it is! comes with old age i suppose..memory not quite so sharp!

Just to follow up on that 1861 household with the absent husband/father,

Mary Ann Greatrex 15 granddaughter
(the last bit of the surname is hard to read on the original)

Marriages Jun 1838 ?
GREATOREX John Belper 19 299
RICE Gertrude Belper 19 299

It might be interesting to know whether they married each other and who Gertrude's father was, but this one is pretty tenuous.

Births Mar 1844
Greatorex Mary Ann Belper 19 461

But there are a couple of other possibles as well ... that one seems to be with Slater grandparents in 1851.

Aha, more likely marriage for parents? (well after birth ...)

Marriages Jun 1861
Diamond Mary Liverpool 8b 298
? Greatorex William Liverpool 8B 298
McIntyre Peter Liverpool 8b 298
? Rice Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 298

Can't find them in any census.


Oh, here we go, maybe -- Ancestry strikes again:

1851

Name: Mary Ann Greatorix
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester

Robert Kirkpatrick 36
Elizabeth Kirkpatrick 35
Thomas Kirkpatrick 9
John Gratorix 39 - lodger - born Derbyshire - widower
John Gratorix 11
George Greatorix 9
Mary Ann Greatorix 5 -- daughter of John Gratorix (as it says), not the Kirkpatricks

Which brings us back to John Greatorex who *may have* married Gertrude Rice. But from the 1841, I think he actually married the Hannah Wood in the list of brides.

Deaths Sep 1845
GREATOREX Hannah Manchester 20 381


All this is in aid of trying to figure out whether Margaret Rice with daughter Catherine was married to Peter Rice and had a daughter who married a Greatorex, producing granddaughter Mary Ann Greatorex, so you could see what that daughter's marriage certificate said for her father's name!

thnx a million jax..will look now.....thought i had done EVERY census,EVERY possible dates and EVERY posiible spelling!! obviously i missed this....only just ad mi glasses changed too,so cant use that as an excuse! lol

It is the 1851 census that Janey posted above catharine Rice 1837 Bridget is another lodger with her

jax

thnx janey..i really do appreciate all the help. but WHERE did you find catherine and bridget in census? i looked everywhere and didnt see em! xx

It's a coincidence only, Elaine.

The Catherine Rice house servant I posted was in Louth, Lincolnshire, on the English census.

The Peter Rice night watchman I posted was born in Dundalk, Leinster, per the actual census record in the English census.

Oops, I was slow on that one -- she is with a Bridget Rice aged 19, born Ireland, "Genl. servant out of situation". (It was a lodging house, by the way -- several other residents were born in Ireland.) They could have been looking for work ... There are 6 Bridget Rice marriages 1861-1871, mostly in Lancashire (2 Liverpool, 1 Manchester)


The odds are better for you -- my ancestors all immigrated to Canada between 1906 and 1927 so I don't live anywhere near nowhere!