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Also in the 1891 Census, there was a Thomas Smith aged 45 ( Widd ) listed as an inmate possible workhouse??
Pete

Dee,
I've just looked on freebmd and there were only three Thomas Edwin Smith's born between 1845-47, My Cert (Stepney) one frome Notts and another from Yorkshire, do you think it is now safe to say I have the right one, or do freebmd not always carry all the info'?
Have a nice weekend,
Regards,
Pete

Pete,

I've turnes the Smith side upside down, inside out and back to front and I'll be jiggered if I can find anything between 1851 and 1881.. so I'm now looking to see if there are any clues on the Fisher side;

1851 England Census
about Thomas Fisher
Name: Thomas Fisher
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1789
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Fisher
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Putney, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Poplar
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Boat Builder,

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 28
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Fisher 62
Elizabeth Fisher 37 Born Millwall, Poplar
Thomas Fisher 14 "
Ann Fisher 12 "
F C Amos Fisher 10 "
Elizabeth Fisher 8 "
Lydia Fisher 6 "
George Fisher 4 "

So all the children born in Millwall.


1871 England Census
about Thos Fisher
Name: Thos Fisher
Age: 84
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1787
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizh Fisher
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England
Civil parish: Poplar
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Household schedule number: 275
Household Members: Name Age
Thos Fisher 84
Elizh Fisher 60
Lydia Fisher 26
Geo Rountree 3 > grandson


Uummmm.............. still not coming up with anything, time for a break i thinks.

Cheers Dee,
Many thanks
for your help
Regards
Pete

Hi Pete,

I think we're on the right tracks, with maybe an exaggeration thrown in now and then....... like most people really.

I think the birth cert you have for Alfred looks good to me, and the Thomas and Alfred on census together is looking good.

The problem is Alfreds father Thomas, sometimes Thomas Edwin! I still think that Alfreds father was Thomas Edwin, but dropped his middle name (remember that Thomas Smith and Catherine Turvey had a son Thomas Edwin who died young!), the occupation for Alfred in 1901 reflects his fathers occupation........ we know that many a son followed in his fathers footsteps with jobs back then.

We just need to find Thomas in more census returns to piece it together.

If his father did die then it is possible that Mary remarried and he is hiding under his stepfathers name??

Looks like lots more work to do, but haven't got time at the mo Pete, so will have another look tomorrow.


Deex

I had the other Cert that I sent off for today too,
Alfred my great gradfather
Address57 Blount street Father Thomas ( not Thomas edwin)??, Job Stevidore
Mother Catherine Smith Formerly Turvey. do you think I have one of these wrong??
I do know that Alfred's daughter was called Catherine so I am almost certain that Alfred's Cert is the right one, it's just Master Mariner sounds too good for my family!
Pete

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Name: Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1821
Baptism Date: 19 Aug 1821
Father's Name: Thomas Fisher >> Occupation; Shipwright!!
Mother's Name: Mary Fisher
Parish or Poor Law Union: Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets

DOB; 23/01/1820

Hi Pete,

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Thomas Smith
Name: Thomas Smith >> Master Mariner!!
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Spouse Name: Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 01 Jul 1845
Parish: St George in the East
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: James Smith >> farmer ???
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Fisher >> Boat Builder ???

1 witness was Thomas Fisher, I can't read the other name.

Thomas's address; 3 Queen Street, Bethnal Green
Mary Elizabeths; 14 North Place, Putney



Dee x

Just had Thomas Edwin's birth Cert 1846 in the post and his father was thomas Smith, Mother formerly Mary Elizabeth Fisher Father's occupation Clerk in the London Docks living in number 20 Havering street stepney.
so that is another name mary Elizabeth Fisher I have not come accross before?? can anyone help??
Pete

Hi Pete,

something else to consider;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Ann Murray
Name: Mary Ann Murray
Spouse Name: Edward Smith >>> Mariner
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 21 Nov 1842
Parish: St Anne, Limehouse
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Murray >> Boot and Shoe Maker
Spouse Father Name: George Smith > Farmer



And then;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Ann Smith
Name: Mary Ann Smith > Widow
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Spouse Name: John Griffiths >>> Mariner
Spouse Age: 40
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 12 Sep 1852
Parish: Christ Church, Spitalfields
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Murray >> Boot and Shoe Maker
Spouse Father Name: David Griffiths


It may make sense as to why we can't see Thomas after 1851???


Dee x

Looks like Thomas Edwin Jnr died in 1877
Pete

Hi Dee,
I will order the birth cert for Thomas Edwin Smith born June 1846 Stepney Vol 2 Page 572 do you think this is the right one??
Many thanks
Pete

Just a possability;

1881 England Census
about Alfred Smith
Name: Alfred Smith
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Smith
Mother's Name: Catherine Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Linchouse
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 55 Blount St
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Smith 34 Stevedore Dock Lab.
Catherine Smith 30
Samuel Smith 12
Louis Smith 9
Alfred Smith 2
Ann Turvey 62 Mother in law
Samuel Turvey 25 MIL Son


Their marriage;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Thomas Smith
Name: Thomas Smith >> Labourer
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Spouse Name: Catherine Turvey
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 27 Sep 1875
Parish: St Philip, Stepney
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Thomas Smith >> mariner
Spouse Father Name: John Turvey >> lighterman

Grooms address; 10 Sydney Street
Brides address; 17 Nelson Street

Witnesses; Anne and Samuel Turvey



1891 England Census
about Alfred Smith
Name: Alfred Smith
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse, London, England

Civil parish: St Leonard
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michaels
Town: Bromley
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 39
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Smith 43 Born Ratcliffe, STEVEDORE!! Widow
Alfred Smith 12


I'm struggling to see Thomas before or after these dates.......... BUT what I did find was this;


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Thomas Edwin Smith
Name: Thomas Edwin Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1876
Baptism Date: 30 Jul 1876
Father's Name: Thomas Smith >> Occupation; STEVEDORE!!
Mother's Name: Catherine Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets



And sadly his death;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1877
---------------------------------
SMITH Thomas Edwin 1 Stepney 1c 344


I can't see a baptism for Alfred or for any other children.

I would really consider the above info, although on the marriage for this Alfreds parents the name Edwin is omitted I would hazard a guess that is what his full name was as he seems to have named his first son the same.


Dee x

Pete,

I'll have a look another time if no one else pops by, tea to do.

But if Alfred was born 1878/79 then he probably wasn't a Smith and if they are his parents in 1881 where is he???


Dee x

Bit confused by the last entry I was sure you had the right one for the marriage but they could be the same people couldn't they?
Pete
must be off now as going to work but thank you and everyone for your help
Pete

Pete,

I think the above marriage is wrong!! This looks like that couple;

1881 England Census
about Thomas E. Smith
Name: Thomas E. Smith
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Mitcham, Surrey, England

Civil parish: St Marys Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 36 Seven Sisters Rd "Enkel Arms"
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Licensed Victualler

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 68b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas E. Smith 27
Hannah Smith 30
Harry Hall 18
Lydia Derrick 25
Ellen Jones 19


Now I'm having a problem enlarging the marriage image...... however I can see that father Thomas Smith is a Licensed Victualler, which maybe the sons occupation too???


Dee x

Thank you very much I can say that his father was Thomas Smith born aprox 1820's
Many thanks
Pete

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Thomas Edwin Smith
Name: Thomas Edwin Smith
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Spouse Name: Hannah Maria Dobson
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 20 May 1879
Parish: St Mary Stratford Bow
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Thomas Smith
Spouse Father Name: Henry Dobson

Can't view original image at the mo.

BatmansDaughter,
Yes that is the Cert I have
Pete

Is this Alfred's marriage to Amy Eliza:

Marriages Sep 1900 (>99%)

Milburn Amy Eliza Poplar 1c 961
Rogers Edith Louisa Poplar 1c 961
Sheppard Thomas James Poplar 1c 961
Smith Alfred Poplar 1c 961

and is this them in 1901 - Alfred's occupation - stevedore

1901 England Census
about Alfred Smith
Name: Alfred Smith
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Amy Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Stepney, London, England

Civil parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: All Hallows
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred Smith 23
Amy Smith 20