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Keeping them crossed for you Pete, with any luck it will help in the search.

Dee x

Just to let you know I have today ordered the Will of Sampson Champion so fingers crossed there will be some more info to come
regards
Pete

Hi Dee,
Thanks
so much for that I will investigate that asap,
Happy hunting!!
regards
Pete

Hi Pete,

Just popped in to check my threads. Now Jonesey has a tip on the Tips Board regarding Wills............ I had a quick read and it seems that you maybe able to get a copy and not have to pay a ridiculous amount!! It may name his children also.......... now that would be a bonus!

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/tips_board/thread/1259939


I still couldn't get any further back with Sampson Snr, he may name his father as Sampson on his 2nd marriage, but I'll be blowed if I can see anything!!

All for now, Dee xx

Hi Dee,
Well you have found out a lot Sampson and Rose Wallis had Sampson their Son but could there have been more children? and Wow the will I would love to know where I could get a copy if you still can these days??
Once again thank you so much for your research Dee,
Kind regard
Pete

1841 England Census
about Ragen Connelly
Name: Ragen Connelly
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St James Clerkenwell
Hundred: Ossulstone (Finsbury Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Clerkenwell
Sub-registration district: Amwell
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Roger Connelly 45
Mary Connelly 40
Mary Connelly 8
Ellen Connelly 5
Ragen Connelly 4


So no children born to Sampson and Ellen.

1891 England Census
about Ellen Champion
Name: Ellen Champion
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Where born: Clerkenwell, London, England

Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anthony
Town: Peckham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Champion 56 >> Widow, living on own means
Mary Corcoran 58 >>> Sister, maybe the same lady who was a witness at the wedding?
James Gunning 46



1871 England Census
about Ellen Champion
Name: Ellen Champion
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Champion 36
Royce Conolly 34
Jane Corcoran 40


Also with them ;

John Corcoran aged 37
Mary Corcoran 37



1881 England Census
about Ellen Champion
Name: Ellen Champion
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Marlebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 2 Up Ogle St
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Dressmaker

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls
ED, institution, or vessel: 10b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Champion 47
Mary Carcoran 49
Roger Connolly 45 >>>>>> BROTHER!!???!!
James Gunming 36 >> cousin



1851 England Census
about Roger Connolly
Name: Roger Connolly
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Mary Connolly
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Pentonville St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Clerkenwell
Sub-registration district: Pentonville
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 531
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Connolly 50
Mary Connolly 18
Ellen Connolly 16
Roger Connolly 14

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
about Sampson Thomas Champion
Name: Sampson Thomas Champion
Probate Date: 10 Mar 1870
Death Date: 10 Jan 1870
Death Place: Middlesex, England
Registry: Principal Registry
EFFECTS under £200.00

States;

"Letters of Administration (with the Will annnexed) of the personal estate and effects Sampson Thomas Champion Late of 32 Cleveland Street, Fitzroy Square Middlesex. Who died 10th Jan 1870 at University College Hospital Gower Street, to Ellen Champion 32 Cleveland Street aforesaid Widow the Relict the Unversal Legatee named in the said Will she having been first sworn"

Hi Pete,

sorry not been on much........ hubbies off for 3 weeks so my time is taken elsewhere at the mo.

Well Sampson certainly names his own father as Sampson on his marriage to Ellen Rogers, now whether this is just a name to save face I am unsure?

I haven't located Ellen after Sampson's death yet......... but will try now.


Dee x

Hi Dee,
I have the marriage Cert for Sampson Jnr boen 1844, his wife was kate rosa Slark and he was a gasfitter, what ever that was?
and I know that Sampson Snr's wife Rose Wallis died in 1864 Norfolk street Marylebone.I wonder how old Ellen Rogers was and did he have any more children?
So does that mean Sampson Snr's father was Sampson too!! ?
Regard
Pete

Have to go for a while now.......... but just adding this to consider;

London, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
about Saml Thos Champion
Name: Saml Thos Champion
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1804
Parish: St Marylebone
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Parent(s): Wm,
Elizth
Record Type: Baptism

Aahhh......... so Sampson Snr married again after Rose died!!!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sampson Thomas Champion
Name: Sampson Thomas Champion >> Gas Fitter... widower
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: Ellen Rogers
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 31 Jul 1865
Parish: St Pancras Parish Church
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Sampson Champion >> Dead
Spouse Father Name: Robert Rogers


Adress for Sampson; Wellesley Street.


Witnesses; Martin James Egan (?) and Mary Ann Corcoran


Dee x

I can't link the nephew Arthur Beaumont born Hanwell from the 1861 census.

Will have another look later.

1841 England Census
about Sampson Champer
Name: Sampson Champer
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls and Trinity
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Sampson Champer 30

With;

Rose 30
Rose 10
Sarah Smith 25

1861 England Census
about Sampson P Champine
Name: Sampson P Champine
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rose Champine
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 274
Household Members: Name Age
Sampson P Champine 50
Rose Champine 50
Sampson Champine 17
Sarah Smith 18 >>> Niece, born Shoreditch
Mary Smith 14 >> Niece, born Hanwell
William Smith 8 >>Nephew, born Hanwell
Arthur Beaumont 8 >> Nephew, born Hanwell



1851 England Census
about Sarah Smith
Name: Sarah Smith
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Smith
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hanwell
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 2a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 176
Household Members: Name Age
William Smith 34 >> tinplate worker
Sarah Smith 36
Sarah Smith 8
Mary Ann Smith 4
Rose Smith 2
Camilla North 13 >> daughter???



Back to the Wallis side again!!!!!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Smith
Name: William Smith >> Tinplate worker
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Spouse Name: Sarah Wallis
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1841
Parish: St John the Baptist, Hoxton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: William Smith
Spouse Father Name: Leonard Wallis >> Blacksmith, deceased

Witnesses; Henry Dix and Matilda Smith

Hi Pete,

This is their marriage........ not banns as stated;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sampson Champion
Name: Sampson Champion
Spouse Name: Rose Hollis >> Wallis on image
Record Type: Banns
Marriage Bann Date: 18 Oct 1829
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County: Surrey
Borough: Hackney



Witnesses; ? J Chamberlain and Caroline Chamberlain


Arrgghhhh........ poop, was hoping the witnesses were from your Champion side, ah well at least we have a sister for Rose!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Humphrey Jackson Chamberlain
Name: Humphrey Jackson Chamberlain
Spouse Name: Caroline Wallis
Record Type: Banns
Marriage Bann Date: 01 Jul 1822
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County: Surrey
Borough: Hackney

Witnesses; Leonard Wallis and Mary Ann Price.

So maybe a brother for Rose or even her father???


I'll keep looking about, have a good day at work Pete,


Dee x

Hi Dee,
thanks so much for your help,
My grandfather Thomas Alfred Smith born 1901 was a Stevidore too!

Just to go totally off the track , where could I get a copy of my G G G Grandfather Birth records or basically to find his mother and father, on the other side of my tree?
Sampson Champion born 1811/12 died 1870 University college hospital Married to Rose Wallis born 1810 . They both married in 1829 Shoreditch?
They both had a son also called Sampson.

Must go to work now
Regards
Pete

Uuumm..........

1871 England Census
about Thomas Smith
Name: Thomas Smith
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Civil parish: St George in The East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St George In The East
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 256
Household Members: Name Age
Catherine Vallack 49
Esther Vallack 16
George Vallack 14
Catherine Vallack 10
Harriett Vallack 8
George Frogley 28
Thomas Smith 24 >> STEVEDORE!!!

Kids breakfast done!

Most likely Alfreds birth;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1847 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smith Alfred Southampton 7 212

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And maybe Elizabeths?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1850 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smith Elizabeth Southampton 7 224

Hi Pete,

I think we're heading in the right direction, I would like to provide more positive info to get the definate link....... but I just don't think we're going to get there. But all in all, if it were my ancestry line I would feel like we may have traced Alfred, his father Thomas and to a certain extent Thomas Snr to the fullest extent.

The problem with birth registration was that it didn't become compulsary until 1874, when it became compulsary the onus was on parents to register a birth, not on the Registrar to seek them out............. so if the local Registrar didn't know about a birth he couldn't register it.......... this leads us the the fact that we still have to keep an open mind on the Smith side??

I think what you have to consider is;

1.Alfred in 1901 had the occupation of Stevedore... like I said previously occupations were very much a father to son thing back then.

2. Alfred names his father as Thomas Edwin, Labourer, on his marriage certificate.

3. We find Alfred with Thomas in 1891 and 1881, Thomas had the occupation of Stevedore.

4. Thomas's first born with Catherine Turvey was Thomas Edwin Smith...... very traditionally named after family members.

5.Thomas confirms his father was Thomas a Mariner on his marriage certificate.

6. The birth Certificate for Thomas Edwin confirms his fathers name nd occupation.... this all tallies with the other info we have.

7. Thomas Snrs marriage to Mary Elizabeth Fisher confirms again his occupation.

Thomas snr (Mariner) may have over emphasised his occupation slightly, but this wouldn't be out of the norm........ most people do things like that even today!!

Alfred born 1878/79.......... was he named after Thomas Edwins brother on the 1851 census?

I think when you look at the above it makes good reading for a good case of this is the links to the ancestry on the Smith side.

Now harping back to the 1851 census. There were 2 siblings with Thomas; Alfred born 1848 Southampton, Hampshire (off the top of my head) and Elizabeth 1850, same place. I can't trace them after then....... they could have thought they were born in London and changed their birth info. Now whether you would consider ordering their birth certificates and see what that info holds I don't know??

The 1881 census; Samuel Smith born 1869 and Louis Smith born 1872...... I haven't found these 2 boys before or after this census, they are stated as sons to Thomas and Catherine, but I have doubts. I think these boys are Turvey connected and not necessarily Catherines.

Kids are up, time to go.

Deex