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Just had Thomas Edwin's birth Cert 1846 in the post and his father was thomas Smith, Mother formerly Mary Elizabeth Fisher Father's occupation Clerk in the London Docks living in number 20 Havering street stepney.
so that is another name mary Elizabeth Fisher I have not come accross before?? can anyone help??
Pete

Hi Pete,

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Thomas Smith
Name: Thomas Smith >> Master Mariner!!
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Spouse Name: Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 01 Jul 1845
Parish: St George in the East
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: James Smith >> farmer ???
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Fisher >> Boat Builder ???

1 witness was Thomas Fisher, I can't read the other name.

Thomas's address; 3 Queen Street, Bethnal Green
Mary Elizabeths; 14 North Place, Putney



Dee x

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Name: Mary Elizabeth Fisher
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1821
Baptism Date: 19 Aug 1821
Father's Name: Thomas Fisher >> Occupation; Shipwright!!
Mother's Name: Mary Fisher
Parish or Poor Law Union: Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets

DOB; 23/01/1820

I had the other Cert that I sent off for today too,
Alfred my great gradfather
Address57 Blount street Father Thomas ( not Thomas edwin)??, Job Stevidore
Mother Catherine Smith Formerly Turvey. do you think I have one of these wrong??
I do know that Alfred's daughter was called Catherine so I am almost certain that Alfred's Cert is the right one, it's just Master Mariner sounds too good for my family!
Pete

Hi Pete,

I think we're on the right tracks, with maybe an exaggeration thrown in now and then....... like most people really.

I think the birth cert you have for Alfred looks good to me, and the Thomas and Alfred on census together is looking good.

The problem is Alfreds father Thomas, sometimes Thomas Edwin! I still think that Alfreds father was Thomas Edwin, but dropped his middle name (remember that Thomas Smith and Catherine Turvey had a son Thomas Edwin who died young!), the occupation for Alfred in 1901 reflects his fathers occupation........ we know that many a son followed in his fathers footsteps with jobs back then.

We just need to find Thomas in more census returns to piece it together.

If his father did die then it is possible that Mary remarried and he is hiding under his stepfathers name??

Looks like lots more work to do, but haven't got time at the mo Pete, so will have another look tomorrow.


Deex

Cheers Dee,
Many thanks
for your help
Regards
Pete

Pete,

I've turnes the Smith side upside down, inside out and back to front and I'll be jiggered if I can find anything between 1851 and 1881.. so I'm now looking to see if there are any clues on the Fisher side;

1851 England Census
about Thomas Fisher
Name: Thomas Fisher
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1789
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Fisher
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Putney, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Poplar
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Boat Builder,

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 28
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Fisher 62
Elizabeth Fisher 37 Born Millwall, Poplar
Thomas Fisher 14 "
Ann Fisher 12 "
F C Amos Fisher 10 "
Elizabeth Fisher 8 "
Lydia Fisher 6 "
George Fisher 4 "

So all the children born in Millwall.


1871 England Census
about Thos Fisher
Name: Thos Fisher
Age: 84
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1787
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizh Fisher
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England
Civil parish: Poplar
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Household schedule number: 275
Household Members: Name Age
Thos Fisher 84
Elizh Fisher 60
Lydia Fisher 26
Geo Rountree 3 > grandson


Uummmm.............. still not coming up with anything, time for a break i thinks.

Dee,
I've just looked on freebmd and there were only three Thomas Edwin Smith's born between 1845-47, My Cert (Stepney) one frome Notts and another from Yorkshire, do you think it is now safe to say I have the right one, or do freebmd not always carry all the info'?
Have a nice weekend,
Regards,
Pete

Also in the 1891 Census, there was a Thomas Smith aged 45 ( Widd ) listed as an inmate possible workhouse??
Pete

Hi Pete,

I think we're heading in the right direction, I would like to provide more positive info to get the definate link....... but I just don't think we're going to get there. But all in all, if it were my ancestry line I would feel like we may have traced Alfred, his father Thomas and to a certain extent Thomas Snr to the fullest extent.

The problem with birth registration was that it didn't become compulsary until 1874, when it became compulsary the onus was on parents to register a birth, not on the Registrar to seek them out............. so if the local Registrar didn't know about a birth he couldn't register it.......... this leads us the the fact that we still have to keep an open mind on the Smith side??

I think what you have to consider is;

1.Alfred in 1901 had the occupation of Stevedore... like I said previously occupations were very much a father to son thing back then.

2. Alfred names his father as Thomas Edwin, Labourer, on his marriage certificate.

3. We find Alfred with Thomas in 1891 and 1881, Thomas had the occupation of Stevedore.

4. Thomas's first born with Catherine Turvey was Thomas Edwin Smith...... very traditionally named after family members.

5.Thomas confirms his father was Thomas a Mariner on his marriage certificate.

6. The birth Certificate for Thomas Edwin confirms his fathers name nd occupation.... this all tallies with the other info we have.

7. Thomas Snrs marriage to Mary Elizabeth Fisher confirms again his occupation.

Thomas snr (Mariner) may have over emphasised his occupation slightly, but this wouldn't be out of the norm........ most people do things like that even today!!

Alfred born 1878/79.......... was he named after Thomas Edwins brother on the 1851 census?

I think when you look at the above it makes good reading for a good case of this is the links to the ancestry on the Smith side.

Now harping back to the 1851 census. There were 2 siblings with Thomas; Alfred born 1848 Southampton, Hampshire (off the top of my head) and Elizabeth 1850, same place. I can't trace them after then....... they could have thought they were born in London and changed their birth info. Now whether you would consider ordering their birth certificates and see what that info holds I don't know??

The 1881 census; Samuel Smith born 1869 and Louis Smith born 1872...... I haven't found these 2 boys before or after this census, they are stated as sons to Thomas and Catherine, but I have doubts. I think these boys are Turvey connected and not necessarily Catherines.

Kids are up, time to go.

Deex

Kids breakfast done!

Most likely Alfreds birth;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1847 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smith Alfred Southampton 7 212

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And maybe Elizabeths?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1850 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smith Elizabeth Southampton 7 224

Uuumm..........

1871 England Census
about Thomas Smith
Name: Thomas Smith
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Civil parish: St George in The East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St George In The East
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 256
Household Members: Name Age
Catherine Vallack 49
Esther Vallack 16
George Vallack 14
Catherine Vallack 10
Harriett Vallack 8
George Frogley 28
Thomas Smith 24 >> STEVEDORE!!!

Hi Dee,
thanks so much for your help,
My grandfather Thomas Alfred Smith born 1901 was a Stevidore too!

Just to go totally off the track , where could I get a copy of my G G G Grandfather Birth records or basically to find his mother and father, on the other side of my tree?
Sampson Champion born 1811/12 died 1870 University college hospital Married to Rose Wallis born 1810 . They both married in 1829 Shoreditch?
They both had a son also called Sampson.

Must go to work now
Regards
Pete

Hi Pete,

This is their marriage........ not banns as stated;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sampson Champion
Name: Sampson Champion
Spouse Name: Rose Hollis >> Wallis on image
Record Type: Banns
Marriage Bann Date: 18 Oct 1829
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County: Surrey
Borough: Hackney



Witnesses; ? J Chamberlain and Caroline Chamberlain


Arrgghhhh........ poop, was hoping the witnesses were from your Champion side, ah well at least we have a sister for Rose!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Humphrey Jackson Chamberlain
Name: Humphrey Jackson Chamberlain
Spouse Name: Caroline Wallis
Record Type: Banns
Marriage Bann Date: 01 Jul 1822
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County: Surrey
Borough: Hackney

Witnesses; Leonard Wallis and Mary Ann Price.

So maybe a brother for Rose or even her father???


I'll keep looking about, have a good day at work Pete,


Dee x

1861 England Census
about Sampson P Champine
Name: Sampson P Champine
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rose Champine
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 274
Household Members: Name Age
Sampson P Champine 50
Rose Champine 50
Sampson Champine 17
Sarah Smith 18 >>> Niece, born Shoreditch
Mary Smith 14 >> Niece, born Hanwell
William Smith 8 >>Nephew, born Hanwell
Arthur Beaumont 8 >> Nephew, born Hanwell



1851 England Census
about Sarah Smith
Name: Sarah Smith
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Smith
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hanwell
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 2a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 176
Household Members: Name Age
William Smith 34 >> tinplate worker
Sarah Smith 36
Sarah Smith 8
Mary Ann Smith 4
Rose Smith 2
Camilla North 13 >> daughter???



Back to the Wallis side again!!!!!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Smith
Name: William Smith >> Tinplate worker
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Spouse Name: Sarah Wallis
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1841
Parish: St John the Baptist, Hoxton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: William Smith
Spouse Father Name: Leonard Wallis >> Blacksmith, deceased

Witnesses; Henry Dix and Matilda Smith

1841 England Census
about Sampson Champer
Name: Sampson Champer
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls and Trinity
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Sampson Champer 30

With;

Rose 30
Rose 10
Sarah Smith 25

I can't link the nephew Arthur Beaumont born Hanwell from the 1861 census.

Will have another look later.

Aahhh......... so Sampson Snr married again after Rose died!!!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sampson Thomas Champion
Name: Sampson Thomas Champion >> Gas Fitter... widower
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: Ellen Rogers
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 31 Jul 1865
Parish: St Pancras Parish Church
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Sampson Champion >> Dead
Spouse Father Name: Robert Rogers


Adress for Sampson; Wellesley Street.


Witnesses; Martin James Egan (?) and Mary Ann Corcoran


Dee x

Have to go for a while now.......... but just adding this to consider;

London, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
about Saml Thos Champion
Name: Saml Thos Champion
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1804
Parish: St Marylebone
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Parent(s): Wm,
Elizth
Record Type: Baptism

Hi Dee,
I have the marriage Cert for Sampson Jnr boen 1844, his wife was kate rosa Slark and he was a gasfitter, what ever that was?
and I know that Sampson Snr's wife Rose Wallis died in 1864 Norfolk street Marylebone.I wonder how old Ellen Rogers was and did he have any more children?
So does that mean Sampson Snr's father was Sampson too!! ?
Regard
Pete