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the 1851 census for Mary Smith Hope (Ancestry has made a complete hash of it)

Name: Mary Hope
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1819 <<<
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Golden Hope
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Epping, Essex, England

Civil Parish: Braintree
County/Island: Essex

Golden Hope 30 general dealer
Mary Hope 32
Mary Hope 3
John Hope 1 6 MO


and once again ....... the marriage record, you have it, and that is where the name Ambrose Smith as her father comes from?


Marriages Jun 1841 ??
BUGG John Colchester 12 85
Hope Golden Colchester 12 85 <<<
Joyce John Colchester 12 85
WALKER Maria Colchester 12 85
WRIGHT Louisa Colchester 12 85
WRIGHT Sarah Colchester 12 85


.... I can't find a marriage to a Mary Smith ....

Terry I am going to be off shortly but others could help maybe

why not use the 'Edit' link to change your subject line to something like

Ambrose Smith born c1755 Norfolk

and then people will know what the thread is really about, lol

Thank you Tony.

Hi Terry.

Yes....the outcome of many early convicts were in some cases worse than the crime committed.

Any records here in Australia before early to mid 1800s should be taken with a grain of salt or as a calculated guess, as much was not recorded or index'd, and there is much information damaged/unreadable or missing from the records.

Ancestry "Hints" when it comes to very early records in this Country.... are as it states. ( A Hint )


Good luck.

Tony ( Australia )

thank you Chrissie,yes I will look this up,you have been very helpfull.

if you go to the IGI

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_igi.asp

and search for only this

surname Smith
region British Isles
batch number 1702597

you will see several Smith baptisms in Bergh Apton that you might want to browse just for info


have you searched trees at this website and are you in touch with other members who have Smith born in Bergh Apton ?

someone has Ambrose 1786

someone has Letitia who is on that list in the IGI, parents John Smith and Phebe Mayes ... possibly that John Smith was the oldest child of your Ambrose's father John ?

all just possibilities

without an actual parish record even the info about Ambrose born in Bergh Apton is not confirmed

Thanks Chrissie yes it certainly looks a better prospect that his mother was an Elizabeth,and not the mary as first thought.

Tony.
just the thought of that newspaper article,to treat human beings like that is a disgrace,you would not treat dogs like that.
And their crime was prob for stealing a loaf of bread.

good info TonyOz that helps

that Ambrose Smith was from Gloucestershire

Terry since your Smiths were in Norfolk and Suffolk that doesn't look like him


is this the record you are relying on ?

AMBROSE SMITH
Birth: 10 MAY 1785
Christening: 15 MAY 1785 Bergh Apton, Norfolk, England
Father: AMBROSE SMITH
Mother: ELIZABETH SMITH
Messages:
>>> Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The form lists the submitter's name and address and may include source information. The address may be outdated. Details vary. To find the form, you must know the batch and sheet number.
Batch Number: 6927607


it looks respectable but it may not be accurate, it is not an 'official' Mormon transcription of a parish record


but here is the 'official' transcript of Susannah's birth

Name: Susannah Smith
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 10 Feb 1787
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Nicholas', Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
Birth Date: 08 Jan 1787
Birthplace: St. Nicholas, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
Father's Name: Ambrose Smith
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C16315-8 <<
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1526328
Reference Number: items 4-5
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


I like the look of this one maybe ... remember these are just possibilities at this point ... but note the mother's name which fits with what I suggested


Name: Ambrose Smith
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 06 Jan 1755
Baptism/Christening Place: Great Bircham, Norfolk, England
Father's Name: John Smith
Mother's Name: Susanna Smith
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I07399-5 << not 'official' though
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1702597
Reference Number: item 21 p 37
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Thank you.
Ambrose Smith born 1785 in Bergh Apton,Norfolk,married to Marella Draper born 1791,daghter Mary Smith 1825 born Epping,she married Golden Hope,1821,they were my 3x great grandparents

Australia's Second Fleet

A second fleet of six ships left England - Guardian, Justinian, Lady Juliana, Surprize, Neptune, Scarborough. The Guardian struck ice, and was unable to complete the voyage. She was stocked with provisions. Only 48 people died in the first group of ships, but
this time 278 died during the voyage. This time transporting the convicts was in the hands of private contractors.
_____________________________________________________

From the "SYDNEY COVE CHRONICLE", 30th June, 1790

At last the transports are here
DIABOLICAL CONDITION OF THE CONVICTS THEREON 278 died on the fearsome journey to Sydney Cove

-----" The landing of those who remained alive despite their misuse upon the recent voyage, could not fail to horrify those who watched.
As they came on shore, these wretched people were hardly able to move hand or foot. Such as could not carry themselves upon their legs, crawled upon all fours. Those, who, through their afflictions, were not able to move, were thrown over the side of the ships; as sacks of flour would be thrown, into the small boats.
Some expired in the boats; others as they reached the shore. Some fainted and were carried by those who fared better. More had not the opportunity even to leave their ocean prisons for as they came upon the decks, the fresh air only hastened their demise.
A sight most outrageous to our eyes were the marks of leg irons upon the convicts, some so deep that one could nigh on see the bones. ----




SINDFIELD, William, Middlesex - - - - - - - 7
SMALL, John, London - - - - - - - - - - - - 7
SMITH, Ambrose, Gloucs - - - - - - - - - - 7
SMITH, Ann, Wilts - - - - - - - - - - - - - 7
SMITH, Benjamin, Warwick - - - - - - - - - 7

As 278 people died on this voyage.
This is where Ancestry may have got its "Hint"

Tony

now ....

it seems like a good possibility that the Ferdinand Smith who had a daughter Susan baptised in 1793 in Suffolk was a brother of your Ambrose who was the father of Ambrose and Ferdinand

first, how do you know that Ambrose jr and Ferdinand were the sons of an Ambrose ?

we might consider the possibility that Ambrose sr and Ferdinand were brothers ... and their parents could have been Ferdinand and Susan(nah) ... since they both had children named Susan(nah) ...


what would really help is if you just explain what you do know

what your line back to Ambrose jr or Ferdinand or Susannah is ... and the records it comes from

and we can try to help from there

Ancestry is a good site for real information, like census records

the 'hints' on family trees are more often than not nonsense

the sad thing is that people watch the television adverts and think they will have instant family trees

they click 'yes' when they see a hint and the result ..... as many of us here can tell you .... is that Ancestry is full of family trees that have people born and died in one country having children halfway around the world ... who were born before them ... and such like silliness

Ancestry is excellent for doing actual research on

but there like anywhere else, second-hand ... or worse ... information should never be trusted


now


why don't you tell us what you do actually know from actual records
and what you want to learn

and we can see what we might find ?

either Ambrose jr or Ferdinand is your direct ancestor ... which of their children do you descend from ?

waste of money then ancestry Chrissie,I was told it was a good site,but thank you for your time and efforts

here is son Ambrose in 1841

Name: Ambrose Smith
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England

Civil Parish: St Swithin
Hundred: Norwich
County/Island: Norfolk

Ambrose Smith 55
Maria Smith 55
Maria Smith 25
Martha Smith 25
Caroline Smith 15
William Smith 10


he was born within a few short years before Ambrose sr supposedly died in Australia

if Ambrose sr had been a convict yes that is possible, otherwise I don't think he would have left his young children behind in England


are there convict records that would show this TonyOz ?

thank you tony

Chrissie,
his son Ferdand,I only know his death 1826,Susannah was the daughter of Ambrose born 1760and died 1790 so she was 3 when he died

I did look in NSW records on line ... without knowing that !

nothing for an Ambrose Smith at all

no marriage
no death
no children

I think we can dismiss this as nonsense from Ancestry, lol

Just to add.

If Ambrose Smith died in Australia in 1790 his death would have been in NSW.

The first fleet arrived in 1788

So possibly soldier or convict.


Ambrose Smith, one of 1063 convicts transported on the Neptune, Scarborough and Surprize, December 1789.
Details: Sentence details: Convicted at Gloucester Assizes for a term of 7 years.
Vessel: Neptune, Scarborough and Surprize.
Date of Departure: December 1789.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales.


Tony ( Australia )

oh I see now ...

an Ancestry hint ...

please

Ancestry hints are notoriously stupid and false

please do not present them as if they are fact !!!

there is very little likelihood that _your_ Ambrose Smith ever went to Australia