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I have also looked for this couple coming back to England and can't find it or when John Perkins went out.

Thanks Melanie! At least we've found out that my gg grandfather had been married before marrying my gg grandmother - very exciting stuff!

Also I don't quite understand what Idiot Pauper actually means; I.E. pauper very poor, idiot - can't read or write or retarded?

It has just occured to me that if you were not born in that parish you did'nt get parish relief. Mary Bourne is also down as a pauper so would be getting relief for herself and her dau Sarah and by putting John down as born there too would also get his parish relief.

Just looked at that census for Bourne Mary and the dau is down as an Idiot Pauper.

These are the two census with John and his first wife Lydia.

1871 England Census
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Lydia Perkins
Gender: Male
Where born: Nantwich, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Sutton Coldfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Church
Town: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 65
Household Members: Name Age
John Perkins 28 1843 Nantwich Cheshie Butcher at home
Lydia Perkins 27 1840 USA
Georgia Perkins 7 1864 USA
Ellen Davaney 16 Servant
William Fox 17 Butchers errand boy

1881 England Census
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Lily Perkins
Gender: Male
Where born: Nantwich, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Bromsgrove
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street address: Worcester Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Butcher

Registration district: Bromsgrove
Sub-registration district: Bromsgrove
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Perkins 37
Lily Perkins 25
John Perkins
Frederic Duffill 34
Sarah Smith 15
William John Brockington 22
George Godsall 13


Sorry forgot to put the other on there!!!!! See what state I am in!!

Thanks for all your help everyone. As I said before I've ordered his marriage cerificate and I'll post you to tell you who his father was (if it's on the certificate!) as soon as I receive it!!

Reason we can't find Mary Bourne age 86 in Bewdley 1851 is because she is down as Bourne Mary.

I have found her now and it definateley says Perkins John grandson orphan.

Maryb

No it can't be them as this John was a wood cutter same as his father.

1861 England Census
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Son
Father's name: Samuel Perkins
Mother's name: Hannah Perkins
Gender: Male
Where born: Bewdley, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Rock
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Cleobury Mortimer
Sub-registration district: Cleobury Mortimer
ED, institution, or vessel: 7g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 34
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Perkins 43
Hannah Perkins 40
John Perkins 20
Mary Perkins 18
James Perkins 14
Eliza Perkins 6

We keep saying it Benedicte but you really should be getting his marriage cert.

If his father was known, his name and hopefully occupation will be on there - also, addresses and witnesses may give further useful info to confirm.

Dea x

EDIT: Ahh, I see above that you have now ordered this - well done! - It should prove helpful to us, I hope!

Dea x

Melanie, I was just thinking the same thing myself. But would John have had his father's surname if that was the case? I'm pretty sure that this is the right John Perkins, and judging by the grandmother's and aunt's social situation, it is quite possible that the birth wasn't registered.

But the Samuel Perkins and Hannah Bourn(e) family does seem correct too, except that John was an orphan on the 1851 census which would make it wrong.

All so confusing. They should've used a rarer forename to make this easier for their descendants!

Maryb

When I posted the 1851 above, I included the source reference.

I don't know why it will not come up on Ancestry but if you go to the '51 search page and put in the reference number, the page WILL come up for you.

Dea x

His aunt Sarah is old enough to be his mother so perhaps John was base born. Sarah could have gone away to have him.

Then again has anyone actually found his birth??? I know you did'nt have to register births until 1875 when there was a penelty if you did'nt.

As to the bit about Cheshire or Worcs. It could be the old thing about where are you from?

Just turning things around in my head.

Mary, you are quite right, this a very confusing family! Probably why I'm taking so long to find the correct information!
But is does look as if John's parents were Samuel Perkins and Hannah Bourne - seems logical in view of the previous information. Thank you very much Barry.

If John perkins 1843 had sister Eliza born 1855,how could he be an orphan on 1851 census with his Grandma and Aunt Sarah Bourne?

Very confusing family to say the least.
I still can't find them in 1851.

Maryb.

PS Sorry I should have said - the Public Members Trees on the Ancestry website

There is a Family Tree on the Public Members Trees owned by a Thelma Walton which has a John Perkins b 1841 in Bewdley
His parents are recorded as Samuel b 1818 Bewdley and Hannah also born Bewdley 1821
On BMD's there is a Samuel Perkins marriage to a Hannah Bourn(no 'e') in Q4 1838 and the reference is 18 498 in the Kidderminster District
John had 3 siblings
Mary b 1843 Bewdley
James b 1847 Bewdley
and Eliza b Rock 1855
There are also details of Eliza's marriage to a Thomas Blount in 1879 and their 11 children
I'll provide the info if you wish

Just had a quick look and as much as there were no Bournes in Bewdley in 1841, there are loads in Nantwich so I think we're on to the right connection.
In the 1851 census John Perkins is living with his aunt and grandmother in Bewdley. His aunt is called Sarah Bourne and was born in 1816. there is a Sarah Bourne in Nantwich in 1841 who was born in 1816 so it seems to match.

Melanie,

Thanks again. Now I'm getting really confused between the Cheshire connection and the Worcester connection. It does seem from Flick's information that John Perkins could have been in effect born in Cheshire. He seems to have been noted as being born in Bewdley for some census's and being born in Bewdley for others.
Maybe he was born in Cheshire and was brought up in Bewdley? If his mother was originally a Miss Bourne maybe the Bourne family were in Cheshire originally too. I'm going to have a look.

Hmmmmmm?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Sarah Perkins Name: Sarah Perkins
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Nantwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 19
Page: 134

Going back to cheshire I wonder if this could be the death of his father??????


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Year of Registration: 1842
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Nantwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 19
Page: 136

Dos'nt say how old he was unfortunately.