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Harold, Can I just add my penny'sworth and say that I don't think the first senario makes sense. If Sarah Wood married Hodder, her surname would still be Hodder even if he had died. So I think the child would have the name Hodder, even if Mr. Hodder wasn't actually the father.

Looking at the birth certificate you have for a Mary Ann Wood b. 1842 (which you were never happy with) I believe it's for the Mary Ann Wood who died in 1843. It seems her father, William Woods, was the son of your 3xgt.grandfather William Woods. He and his wife, Mary Ann Mumford, lived in Union Street.

But that doesn't help you at all. Good luck with your search and decision.

Christina

It looks as though Mary Ann was born 1842 but the two possibilities are still neck to neck and my helpers are divided

One lady is adamant she is Mary Ann Huggett b 1842 to William Huggett and Sarah Wood.

Another is equally adamant she is Mary Ann Wood b1842 to Harriet Wood but appears in census as Harriet b1842 as the latter's birth cannot be found.

I give up, oh hang on, I've just received an e-mail from an Ancestry user as me to compare signatures and examine the flourish on the w in Shaw. What do you think. If correct we edge towards the second scenario

It looks as though Mary Ann was born 1842 but the two possibilities are still neck to neck and my helpers are divided

One lady is adamant she is Mary Ann Huggett b 1842 to William Huggett and Sarah Wood.

Another is equally adamant she is Mary Ann Wood b1842 to Harriet Wood but appears in census as Harriet b1842 as the latter's birth cannot be found.

I give up, oh hang on, I've just received an e-mail from an Ancestry user as me to compare signatures and examine the flourish on the w in Shaw. What do you think. If correct we edge towards the second scenario

No, I don't blame you, it's a bt of a mouthful, but it sounds more distinguished as you get older.

5 children born alive shows that they must have had two other children who died young. I've found the same with my grandparents, but they were never spoken about. Sad.

Thanks Christine, well that's them for sure.

John Hellawell And Mary Ann with daughter Mary Louisa and my grandad Harold and dad Jack. Lily is my aunt, daughter of James Edward Shaw (Uncle Jimmy, waste of space degenerate, soon to convert to religious tyrant and later to terrorise my mum for daring to smoke).

What does 5 children born alive mean? As far as I know there was only 3, Mary Louisa, James Edward and illegitimate Alfred, soon to die in Galipoli.

Age 69 and married 40 years, that would make birthdate 1842.

Best Regards Harold Hellawell Bower - and I never used that bloody middle name when I was young- maybe John Shaw was the same

1911 census
36, George Street, Milnsbridge, Huddersfield

John Hellawell Shaw - head - 70 - retired tailor - Longwood, Yorks.

Mary Ann Shaw - wife - 69 - married 40 yrs. - 5 children born alive - 3 still living - Croydon, Surrey

Lilly Dorris Shaw - grand daughter - 14 - spinner - Longwood, Yorks.

Mary Louise Bower - daughter - 24 - married 2 yrs - 1 child born alive - 1 child still living - woolen weaver - Longwood, Yorks.

Harold Bower - son-in-law - 23 - woolen weaver - Germany British by parentage

Jack Finch Bower - grandson - 2 - Milnsbridge, Yorks.



A bit messy I'm afraid, but I can't cut and paste. Maybe someone else can send a better copy.

1911 census
10, Bensham Manor Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey

Louisa Wood - 64 - single - no occupation - Croydon, Surrey



She's sharing a house with (but not actually living with) a family named Hall

Hi Christina would you mind sending me the details of the 1911 census entries for both John Hellawell Shaw and the one for Louisa Wood.

That's good advice Potty, and can be terribly frustrating. But luckily in this case, a copy of the original is on Ancestry London Marriages.

Must say that John Shaw's marriage signature is totally different from his signature on the 1911 census. On the 1911 he uses his middle name, Hellawell. But he could have changed over 40 years.

BUT the signature of Louisa Wood on the marriage cert is EXACTLY the same as the one on the 1911 census for Louisa Wood born 1847 in Croydon!

Re comparing signature on 1911 with the marriage cert - the signature on the marriage cert may not be his.

The only signature on any BDM that you can be sure is of the person concerned is the one on the original register - the others are probably (although there are exceptiions) copies.

My grandmother signed the 1911 census and the signature is different to the one marriage cert. Remember, certs are (as stated on them) certified copies of original entries.

Thank you Christina, that is very helpful. Actually the jobs do tie up as in my tree I have dad James as an engineer so inspite of the absence of Hellawell I am sure the certificate is valid.

And yes Mary Ann died 1912 and John 1915 at least according to my info.
I don't have access to the 1911 census but should be able to pay as I go if I can find them. It would be interesting if he signs himself as just John Shaw

Hi Harold,

Re your arguments against Mary Ann Wood (on the other thread):

On the 1851 census for William Wood (the carpenter) with his daughter, Harriet, the names of his grand children are not given. We know the one born 1850 was George, but maybe Mary Ann was the other one.

The 1872 marriage certificate is definitely signed John Shaw, not Shair. Also, John's father was James. Maybe he drove the engine that did the weaving.

Did either John or Mary Ann survive until 1911? If either of them signed the 1911 census you could compare signatures with the marriage certificate. Although with a gap of 40 years they could be quite altered.

Hi Potty,

Yes I have that Mary Ann's certificate (30-08-1842) but decided it was not my Mary - maybe that is wrong.

On the marriage certificate her dade is down as a carpenter.

Yes we considered the Trimmer connection but rejected it -see above

Is Mary Ann's father's occupation given on her marriage cert?

Edit - just noticed it above, carpenter.

Possible baptism for Mary Ann Trimmer - possibly her mother married and she is on later censuses under the new husband's name:

MARY ANN TRIMMER Pedigree
Christening: 27 OCT 1841 Saint John The Baptist, Croydon, Surrey, England
Parents:
Mother: SARAH TRIMMER

Is this not the birth cert for the Mary Ann Huggett reg 1842 - different parents:

I now have that 1942 birth certificate for Mary Ann - born 30-08-1842, father William Wood (Union St, Croydon, occupation Fullier) and Mary Ann Mumford.

Hi Potty, yes we have the birth certificacte 27-11-1842 confirming the above but it does not clarify whether may Mary Ann is Mary Ann Huggett or Mary Ann Wood

Mary Ann's baptism (from familysearch):

MARY ANN HUGGETT Pedigree
:
Christening: 25 DEC 1842 Saint John The Baptist, Croydon, Surrey, England
Parents:
Father: WILLIAM HUGGETT Family
Mother: SARAH


Her birth may not have been registered. Many weren't at that time as it was fairly new procedure and people thought that only a baptism was necessary.

nnnnnnnn

Just an update for those interested. I have not yet purchased anymore certificates but have got input from an Ancestry.co.uk user.

I can confirm Mary Ann Huggett was a wrong lead - she did die in 1847. So we do have Mary Ann Wood and we have now identified the marriage to John Shaw, 25 July 1872 in Plumstead. He was a soldier at Woolwich. From the marriage we have her father as William Wood, a carpenter - though one theory is she named her grandfather on the certificate and that her mother was Harriet Wood with siblings Louisa and George (married to Jane Huggett). But we still haven't got it really buttoned down.

Anymore suggestions?