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Hi Kucinta,

She was Queenie Maud Britton. You are quite right, I will get the marriage certificate for Lillie Kirkly and JC and I will let you know the outcome.

Not very informative, if it's JC c1865 :

census 1871:

Name: Joseph Britton
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Bramley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Bramley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Bramley
Sub-registration district: Bramley

Household Members: Name Age
Mary A Spence 51 Widow c1820 Bramley, Yorkshire, England.
John E Spence 22 Engine man c1849 Bramley, Yorkshire, England.
>>Joseph Britton 5 lodger c1866 Leeds, Yorkshire, England.

Census 1881 that AOGG originally posted for Joseph C Britton - again, no parents:

Name: Joseph C. Britton
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Sharow
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address: Race Course Lane
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Unemployed

Registration district: Ripon
Sub-registration district: Ripon

Household Members: Name Age

Mary Britton 69 Widow c1812 Sharow, Yorkshire, England. Formerly laundress
Joseph C. Britton 16 c1865 Leeds, Yorkshire, England.
John Trueman 17 boarder.

Not having any joy with Lillie or JC in 1891. Know we have them in 1901, and separately in 1911.

Mary was married to a Joseph Britton, of Hunslett I think. These could be his grandparents. Mary was Mary Chester. I think they had 2 Joseph Brittons, but haven't followed this any further as yet.

For what its worth, my Dad and his siblings had no knowledge of where AJ came from, but Arthur was very ill as a toddler and was sent to an Aunt on the south coast for convalescence. Hence Dad thinking he came from down south, which would tie in with Oxted. however, my Uncle Arthur always believed he came from Yorkshire, but I don't know why.

The 1906 marriage certificate simply shows he was 33 when he married. This has been changed at a later date to show aged 41 at marriage. This could be to get out of WW1?

I do now have a concern re the marriage cert to Lillie.

My angle was that if AJ and JC are the same person, he was more likely to be telling the truth when he was JC ,as he had nothing to hide, so the marriage cert is worth getting both to compare with the info on the one to Martha, but also for the information it contains in its own right.

My concern now is that census 1881 shows JC living with his grandmother, and in census 1871 he may be boarded out at the tender age of five.

This leads me to wonder if he might be illegitimate, although it could just be he lost one or both parents very young.

If the former, then the marriage cert may either contain no information about his father, or JC might have done some face saving embroidering and either invented a father, or borrowed the details of an uncle or his grandfather to serve instead.

I still think it's worth a punt to get the marriage cert, but with the caveat imposed by the census material.

Your ancestors didn't believe in making it easy, Jean!

Sounds daft, but do you know if he had a regional accent, and if so, what?

Sorry, no mention of a regional accent. However, have re-checked some of the information and I have his birth year wrong, its 1871, Leeds. V. V. sorry for misleading you all.

In census 1901 when Joseph was with his family with Lillie, he is aged 36, born c1865 - so don't blame yourself.

Out of interest though, where does the born c1871 come from?

I'd be more tempted to go with the census info, especially from before the possible identity change.

The 1871 comes from his Army Pension Record which states he was 23 and 3 months when he signed up in May 1894, was a waiter from Leeds. This record states that his wife was Lillie Britton.

However, in August 1914 there is an Army Pension record for Joseph Britton from Oxted Surrey which states he is 41 years 8 months, which gives a birth year of 1873. This gives his wife as Martha.

Both signatures look the same, both served in West Riding Regiment, both have same 4099 West Riding Regiment.

Very frustrating.

Hmm, census 1901 when he is with Lillie makes him c1865; the likely marriage with Lillie makes him Joseph Charles, A Joseph C is c1865 when living with his grandmother in 1881.

I wouldn't dismiss the mid 1860s date too quickly - not sure why he'd have fibbed when joining the army in 1894 though, unless they wanted men in their 20s, rather than getting on for 30.

So did he join the army in 1894, leave it, become a tram driver by 1901, enlist or get recalled for the 2nd Boer war, become a tram driver again, and then get called up for WWI?


Wish we could find Joseph and Lillie in 1891 census.

Looks like you could be right. In 1903 he shown as a reservist employed in civil life as a labourer. On transfer to reserve he had done 5 years and 25 days. However, there is a note on one page "Mrs Britton has been informed that her husband No 4099 Sgt J Britton was struck off the army reserve for absence on 15.10.1905 and nothing further known of him".

Except that he may have married Martha in 1906 having tried to change his identity.

He next turns up on a Pension record declaring himself in August 1914 to be 41 years old from Oxted, Surrey, but giving his old 4099 West Riding Regiment as previous service and Martha as his wife.

Got them in the 1891 Census living in Chetwynd Steet, Hunslett. JC, wife Lillie, son Bertie and Lillies sister. They are shown as "Briston", but its them!

This one? So Mike's marriage of Joseph C and Lillie is definitely the right one!!!

Also, Joseph is again born c1865 - I believe that is probably about right.

Name: Joseph C Briston
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Lillie Briston
Gender: Male
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Hunslet
Ecclesiastical parish: Holbeck St Barnabas
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Hunslet
Sub-registration district: Hunslet

Household Members: Name Age

Joseph C Briston 26 c1865 Leeds, Yorkshire, England. looks like Insurance agent.
Lillie Briston 19 c1872 Sharow, Yorkshire, England.
Bertie Briston 1/12 c1891 Leeds, Yorkshire, England.
Mary A Kirkley 17 sister in law c1874 Ripon, Yorkshire, England.

Well done Jean Sandra.
Sister in Law confirms Lillie's maiden name.

Going by census 1891 - well done for finding it - I'd go with the Yorkshire origins for JC - he had no need to be fibbing at this stage of his life.

Marriage to Lillie seems to have been sad if they lost 6 out of 9 children, and presumably in a maximum 17 yr or so period.

She was quite young when they married.

JC certainly seems to have changed jobs on a regular basis.

I do wonder what themarriage cert to Lillie will say.

I would go with the 1881 census for JC, given his middle initial and that the Kirkley marriage link has been confirmed in this 1891 census - I know from what you said earlier you've already looked into Mary Britton.

Now we need to find a baptism or birth record for Joseph Charles!

Hi Mike, glad you got to see you were right about that marriage and Lillie's identity.

Hi Kucinta and Mike

Ordered marriage certificate for Lilly and Joseph. Will let you know contents when they arrive.

In the meantime, on with the search for the birth certificate of Joseph Charles, as you said Kucinta.

Will be back in touch as soon as I have further information

many thanks to you both for all your help and support this far.

Hi Kucinta and Mike

Have received marriage certificate for Joseph Charles Britton and Lily Kirkley. He was 25 and from New Mortley (looks like) and she was 18 and from Ripon.

His father was Joseph Britton a BREWER and
her father John Henry Kirkley a fitter.

They married on 7 April 1890, which would make Joseph Charles Britton's year of birth 1865, as we thought.

As Austin Joseph's father is also shown as a BREWER on his marriage certificate, it would seem to indicate that they are one and the same person, don't you think?

Hi Jean,

I agree with you - one and the same person, together with all the other circumstantial evidence you've got, I think this confirms it.