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Nowhere near Salford.........
Marriages Sep 1885
Johnson Francis Aston 6d 516
xxx Smith John Aston 6d 516
Stych Lucy Elizabeth Aston 6d 516
xxx Suckling Fanny Louisa Aston 6d 516

Ok, so I now have Florence's birth certificate and its caused me even more confusion.

Details are:
birth Seventh June 1888 at 2 Richmond Terrace, Salford
Father: John Smith, Labourer
Mother: Fanny Smith formally Suckling (or Buckling?)

on the signature, description box it says: x The mark of Fanny Smith mother, 2 Richmond Terrace, Salford
Registered nineteenth July 1888

Now I'm questioned have I got the right birth certificate as my mum said she was told she shared the same birthday as her on 11th Aug but there is nothing that matches that.

Sorry for not replying, got caught up with another stem of my tree.
Thanks for the offer next time you visit.

I looked at the records of Southern Cemetary and found them all there in grave 849. I've never been there so don't know if there is a headstone or not.

I still can't find Florence's husband's grave but that one will have to wait for now.

Hi Ruth, yes it can be expensive. Some families more so than others, especially if they moved around the country. But you just can't afford to make guesses or you could be wasting time going down the wrong line.

Seems you already know who was buried in the plot at Southern Cemetery. Did you find this info from the online website? There is probably no headstone, but next time I am passing, I will look. May not be for a while. I have a few others at Southern Cemetery to look at. Despite not being far away, the journey is a bit of a nightmare.

Meg

Hiya, I've just paid for Florence's birth certificate. I guess I have to accpet its an exppensive hobby but I am enjoying it too much to stop doing.
My lovely fella just spent a fortune in hoobycraft on bits for me as well as ebay so I can make a family tree scrapbook.

Gong back to the sisters they are both buried in Southern Cemetary in plot 849. They are with Rose Smith who brough them up as her children, The youngest sister also caled Rose married Alex McKenna who is also buried with them. I can't fuind Florence's husband Patrick or the man who brought them up who was William Henry Smith.

If you don't mind looking that would be amazing.

I very rarely add data from other trees unless I have documents that prove it is correct like cencus or birth records and I never accept that the first possibility is always right. I learnt this after going off in a direction that was totally wrong and I learnt from that!

I forgot to add - contact people who have these people in their trees and ask where they got the information from. In most cases you will get one of two possible answers (a) somebody else told me or (b) I have forgotten.

Ignore them and do your own research. I've recently researched a branch for a friend and no fewer than 14 Ancestry trees had the father as a man who had died 6 years before the child was born!!!! And not one tree had the right father, cos nobody had sent for the birth certificate. Except me.

It seems odd that the women were buried together if they married. I passed Southern Cemetery twice today, I could have popped in to see the grave, and check who else was buried in it. Let me know if I can do that for you. I assume you have the plot number. It is probably available online - so have you checked it?

You can apply to the register office that covers Salford and ask that the two births should have the same parents, if you don't trust the GRO references (and perhaps this is not wise). Staff at ROs are usually good at working out what might be right.

Unfortunately, in this hobby, you have to spend money to determine the truth. Family memories are notoriously poor and sometimes downright wrong. Get the certificates and then come back with firm information from them.

This is the link to Court & Prison Records Guide, Manchester Archives.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=3808

sorry to drag up an old thread but I am just ordering the two birth certificates again, or trying to!
I have decided to go direct to the Manchester office and I think they said it was £9 so a bit cheaper and the lady said I could return it if it was the wrong one which was useful to know.

Anyway the reason for dragging this up wasn't for that.

I am still struggling to find the prison records for Mary Ann Smith on any of the websites I use for research. Does anyone know where these records might be kept online or would I need to go to the archives as I don't seem to be able to find anything on the Manchester records site.

Florence Smith married Patrick Pounder in 1916 in Chorlton.
CHO_RM/252/138

Rose Ann(e) Smith married Alexander McKenna in Sept 1919, Chorlton
McKenna Alexander Smith Chorlton 8c 2400
Smith Rose A McKenna Chorlton 8c 2400

Who did Rose and Florence marry and when please?

Dea x

1881 Cencus
Name: Mary Ellen SMITH, Age: 16, Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Prisoner Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Gorton, County/Island: Lancashire, Country: England
Street Address: "H M Prison" Hyde Rd Manchester
Occupation: Paper Sorter
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: Her Majestys Prison
Piece: 3912, Folio: 135, Page Number: 26

I found this on a Manchester Gov website
Belle Vue Prison (or Manchester Borough Gaol / Manchester City Gaol), Hyde Road, West Gorton was opened in 1849 by the Borough of Manchester. It was a short term Jail, but it proved inadequate and some prisoners were still sent to the New Bailey. It was demolished in 1892. The majority of prisoners were tried at the Manchester Magistrates Court or the Manchester Quarter Sessions (see above). Manchester Archives holds the following records for this prison

Does anyone know how I can get further details on the 1881 sentence and also find out more about the 1888 sentence to see if it is the same Mary? Do I need to go to somewhere in Mancheser to go through the Archives?

it does seem a likely scenario - how to prove???

I may have misled you about Mary Ellen's age in 1888 - I think I misread her address house no (20) and interpreted it as her age as on re-reading the articles I could not see an age mentioned

Hi Ann

We knew that a sister of William was given the name of being the black sheep and was always in trouble with the law so it may well be Mary as the Mary in prison in 1881 does appear to be William's sister.

I couldn't find anything else for Mary Ellen Smith. Now yes she could have married but this is why I was trying to determine whether the Mary Ellen Smith being sentenced in 1888 was the same Mary.

It could well be pure coincidence and fit in too neatly with my details but and it is just a but, what if she was the girls mother (I will verify this with birth certs when I can) So being sentenced in 1888 and imprisoned for a year from 1889, out in aprox 1890, got pregnant again and had second child in 1901, well it does fit. I just need to get the records to verify it,

It would tie in with family stories and rumours but until I have real proof its just a possibility out of hundreds and I do know I could be grasping at straws!

Mary Ellen Smith was born Manchester, Lancashire, England in 1865.

This family is a right one to sort out!

why do you think that the Mary Ellen Smith who was in sentenced in 1889 (for theft) was yours please? It was not exactly an uncommon name. She was 'a woman of loose character' living at 20 Brown st., Stockport Road, Manchester at the time of the charge.

Where was your Mary Ellen born please?

Oh Ruth. Never order Certificates through Ancestry. They charge far too much. Order only through the GRO or from the local registry office which will cost you just under £10.
I appreciate what you are saying but it is pointless taking details from trees on Ancestry because many of them contain totally incorrect information and people see it and copy it and so it goes on and on from tree to tree. As for trying to find who Mum is. Get the certificates first if you can and then we can take it from there.

Yes Florrie was with them at an early age but they were not her parents which was known throughout the family. The next cencus with Rose only confirms this with the words niece.

All I know about the adoption is that Florrie went into a chilrens home for a few years, could be before Rose was born or after. Both William and a brother wanted to adopt one child each but they were told the sisters had to be kept together.

It looks very much like Mary Ellen Smith was in a prison in 1881 at the age of 16.
In 1888 when Florrie was born there is a Mary Ellen Smith age 20 being trialled and sentenced in 1889 but I cannot see the full details.

I have tried to get the birth certificates through 3 sources and all came back saying not available.
1st was through ancestry which cost me £22 which was refuned
2nd was through a bmd site which cost £6 something and came back not available so I purchased another that was relevant to another part of my family.
3rd my sister went to somewhere in manchester, a main office as I found out where to go and again came back not availble but we did managed to get the marriage of the parents. I think she went to the wrong place thpugh and not the main manchester records office.

The cencus is not wrong as the family know the addresses mantioned are known family homes.

I am going to the reggistry offices in Manchester in a few months time, meant to go last month, so will find out what is going wrong.

I wasn;t asking for more help about the two girls as I get the points made

It was only after doing a search for Henry's sister Mary that I realised I had stumbled upon a possible lead for a potential mum..

I can't understand why you say you have been unable to get the birth certificiates for the girls. Where did you try and get them from?

You have been given the details of Roses registration in 1891 so you have everything you need to order the cert through the GRO.

Births Jun 1891
Smith Rose Ann Salford 8d 109


You also say that the two girls had to be adopted together. It is obvious from the census records that Florrie was with the family in 1891 before Rose was born so this information is not confirmed by the facts.

Maybe they are the wrong Rose and Florrie?

there was a mary Ellen Smith tried in Salford in dec1888 and sentenced in Jan 1889? Is that the one you mean?

That Mary Ellen was age 20