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Thanks, I think I need it with this lot! :-D

Good luck.

I think I need to buy rose's birth cert now. It's the only way to go next I think.

Ruth, I don't doubt the relationship, just wondering what the relationship was to William.

Ozi

is there a way to show the two pictures on here so you can see what I mean? They really are all very alike and had we not known who the parents were we would say the two grandchildren were children of the same mother.

I also look very similar to Rose, the sister of Florence who is my great grandmother..

I think that it is because of the identical apearance between each of the girl's grandaughters that makes us agree they were definately sisters and Rose who was alive when my mother was a teenager always refered to Florence as her sister.

My mum is now wondering that if what she thought they called Granny Smith was in fact Fanny Smith?

Ah, I'd forgotten the birth cert you have has Florence's father as John.



However, it has been proved there are discrepancies between your family stories and what you have found out.

I'm still doubtful about the 'local authorities'. If it refers to the workhouse, I'd be surprised if they would have cared to whom the girls went. (See my first post on page 1. Ozibird, 29 Nov 2010 23:55)

Also, have you thought that 'nieces' might be slightly further removed. Extended families were much tighter knit in those times, and it's possible the girls may have been the daughters of cousins rather than siblings. Just a thought.

Ozi

also sorry I just realiseed you asked about twins. I've not come across any yet in this side of my family although I suspect Florence and her husband Patrick had twins that died at early childhood.

Also in much later years one of Florence's grandchildren (possibly 2) had twins where one died and also possibly one great great grandchild went through the same thing as well.

Hiya, thanks for replying,
on the 1891 and 1901 William Henry Smith is stated as being born in approx 1861/62 in Newcastle upon tyne who was a market / warehouse porter

He raised Florence and Rose as his daughters but they weren't and they are down as nieces which tallies a family story which Florence told of two brothers wanting to adopt a child each but the local authorities didn't let them so William had both.

On Florence's birth cert in 1888, Salford it gives a father called John Smith, labourer.

A potential family was found for William's parents with the names being James Smith and Bridget. The cencus for 1861, 1871 and 1881 have ages all over but it is the same address 45 Angel Street, Manchester for 1871 and 1881 so I am presuming those are correct.
I'm not so sure of the 1861 as it shows William as being 4.

The ages are abt:
James Smith Birth b1831 in Ireland
Bridget b1839, Ireland
Thomas Smith b1855 , Newcastle uponTyne
John Smith b1860 Newcastle
Kathleen Smith b1862 Newcastle
Mary Ellen Smith b1865 Manchester
Bridget Ann Smith b1867 Manchester

On the 1861 and 1871 cencus William Smith is born in abt 1857 but in 1881 at the same address and also 1891 and 1901 with his wife Rose he is down as being born abt 1862?

John must have been alive to have had a child Florence

BTW, there is this possibility, but it's a long shot.

Births Dec 1860
SMITH John Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 70
SMITH William Newcastle T 10b _0


.. and is there a history of twins in the family?

Ozi

Response to census questions.

1. Are you saying that both John & William are 1 in 1861?
John could've died. There are too many John Smith deaths in Newcastle and Manchester for you to sort them out. Age at death isn't used in the index until 1866 which makes it even harder. However, because he disappears at such a young age, I think that is your best option.

2. It looks like you have the right family.


Lastly, I don't think Ancestry is to blame on this one. It is just too tangled a story, and with a surname like Smith .........................!!

Ozi

ok thanks for that patchem, was worth a try.

I think this one is just too hard for me to solve so will have to be a dead end.
I just don't understand why its so hard to work out when I have the birth certificate and I guess I was hoping to get somewhere once I had it by using my ancestry account but all it has done is confuse me more.
Ancestry is a waste of time on this one....

The information at death is only as accurate as that known to the informant.
But if she is 55 in 1943, she was born in 1888, or just possibly 1887 if born in November/December.

Just a thought, can I get Florence's birth from her death records?
I know her exact death and where she is buried.

Death Nov 1943, Age: 55, Manchester
Living at 25 Fortuna Grove, Levenshulme, Manchester, Lancashire,
Buried :22 Nov 1943, Southern Cemetery, Manchester
I Roman Catholic, Grave 849

OK so what I do know:

Florence Smith born 1888 lived with
William Henry Smith, Birth abt 1862 in Newcastle Upon Tyne
I find William on 1891 and 1901 with Florence, Rose and his wife Rose Ann Lynch who he married in 1884.
His occupation is warehouse porter.

A record was found for me for him in 1881 in 45 Angel Street, Manchester where his occupation is a market porter. In this he is living with mother Bridget 42, and siblings Thomas 21 and Bridget Ann 13. No father is named.

I then have a record for 1871 where he is living in 45 Angel Street, Manchester with mother Bridget Smith 35, and siblings Thomas 16, Kathe 9, Mary Ellen 6 and Bridget Ann 4.

In 1861 I have a record matching the family and they are living in 4 Claytons Court, All Saints, Northumberland. Here William is age 4, living with parents James Smith 30, Bridget 26 and siblings Thomas 6 and John 1.

So the question is what happened to John after 1861 and 2ndly have I got the correct family for William?

edit - William is aged 4 in 1861?

thankyou for ruling tha one out, stopped me going up the wrong path.

okay, so if I look at John Smith instead.
and also is there another birth for a Florence / Florrie Smith.
I'm not keen to buy the wedding cert until it looks likely its the right one and I'm not convinced it is....

John Smith, Birth abt 1860 in Newcastle.
I find him in 1861 with his parents in All Saints, Northumberland, England.with his mother Bridget and father James Smith.

Problem is he then disappears and then there is no sign of im but his parents and siblings are found together.

I'm now wondering if I have the wrong parents. arghhhhhhh

If you buy the marriage certificate it should have her Father's name, then you can confirm what you find elsewhere.
And you need that certificate to help explain (possibly) why the parents married in Aston but she was born in Salford.

You also still have the mystery of the wrong birth date, so could be wrong family.

(Births Jun 1848
Suckling Frances Louise Birmingham 16 388
Suckling Frances Louise Birmingham 16 588)

Fanny Suckling Arthur died in 1870 and the marriage that was found was for a Fanny Louisa Suckling so not the same person.
Regards Carol

possible birth?

Baptism: 26 Aug 1858 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
Fanny Suckling Arthur - Daughter of William Lihou Arthur & Elizabeth Cranfield
Abode: 3 Upper Baker St
Occupation: Clerk in Holy Orders
Notes: Curate of St Augustine
Baptised by: J Herbert Jones, Minister
Register: Baptisms 1830 - 1872, Page 153, Entry 1224
Source: LDS Film 1656013

Hiya, thanks found it on ancestry, in Warwickshire?
I guess its lucky I have now got an unusual surname to work on.
Suckling beats Smith anyday!