Find Ancestors

Hi, Can anyone help me with two sisters Rose and Florence Smith.
Florence was born 11 Aug 1888 in Lancashire, often known as Florrie.
Rose Ann was born in 1891 also in Lancashire.

Both are buried together in Southern Cemetary ICatholic Manchester.

I believe their parents were William Henry Smith and Rose Ann Lynch but Florence told her husband and children that they were adopted.

It was known in the family that WSilliam and his brother? each wanted to adopt one child each but they were not allowed to split the girls apart and so William adopted both.

There are no birth certificates available nor can Manchester Office find a copy? although I have other documents that give details.

There have been family who say the two girls were initially in a catholic childrens home in Manchester area, and Rose eventually worked in a llaundrette.

Can anyone help with this puzzle?

These look like the girls in 1901 with William and Rose. It reads as though William was their Uncle.

Rose Smith
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
Willm Smith 40
Rose Smith 33
Florence Smith 13
Rose Smith 10

Florrie is with them in 1891

William Smith
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Rose A Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Broughton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
William Smith 30
Rose A Smith 26
Florrie Smith 3>>>>>Daughter
James Lynch 47

Why is this not the birth certificate?:
Births Jun 1891
Smith Rose Ann Salford 8d 109

Florence and Rose may not have been christened Smith .

I keep finding a name of Charlotte Clare as a mother but don't know if this is correct.

I think James Lynch is Williams wife Rose's father.

It is strange that William's wife name was also Rose Ann but the family insist the two girls were definately adopted.

This has to be them both ..as 1891 census states Salford for Rose birth .

Florence Smith 1888 sept qrt Salford (as there are two )
Rose Ann Smith 1891 Salford

Marilyn

As adoption wasn't formal at that time it is quite possible the children were William's brother's daughters. He may have been widowed and couldn't cope with two but wanted to keep one.

I'm not sure who you mean by "them" (who wouldn't let the girls be separated) - family, children's home?

Have you followed William's brother's history? Was he married and widowed around the time of their births?

Can you explain tihs:

"I keep finding a name of Charlotte Clare as a mother but don't know if this is correct."

Finding it where??

on records when I look up anything earlier than the 1901 cencus.
sorry, when I refer to them, I was told that the local authorities at the childrens home would not allow the two girls to be adopted separately.

I don't know much about William or his wife Rose Ann Lynch at all.

I've mainly been looking at another stem of the family but this one has baffled a lot of people for a long time as to whether they are blood related to William.

Both Florence and Rose hav great grand daughters who look alike so we know they are likely to be blood sisters.

could they be cousins maybe?
Florence spoke about it quite a lot to her husband Patrick but Rose never said anyhing about it to anyone.

The stoary passed dow was that they were both adopted.

"on records when I look up anything earlier than the 1901 cencus"

Ruth ........ what records ........?

The 1891 census has Florrie with the Smith couple.

What records?

We don't know what you know unless you tell us.

patchem and Marilyn have posted possible births in 1888 and 1891 that match your info rather exactly. Have you investigated them?

yes, I am looking at those now.
It was on ancestry. I found a family tree on there which came up for Florence Smith with same year date of birth and it matched a record I found on 1891 cencus but I think its the wrong person after seeing what you have found for me. Thanks for the help, it all gets a bit confusing.

I'm trying to see if William had a brother but I cannot find anything for him earlier than 1884 which is when he married Rose Ann Lynch.

I think the James Lynch living with them could be Rose's father,

You need to have the Smith+Lynch marriage certificate to know William's father's name for sure.

Marriages Dec 1884
LYNCH Rose Ann Manchester 8d 408
SMITH William Henry Manchester 8d 408

There's just no way around spending some money to make sure you're on the right tracks! Especially with a name like Smith. ;)


There are 3 possible brothers in that 1871 household -- and there could have been more later.

Remember that if the girls actually were nieces, it's at least as likely that they were children of an unmarried sister of William.

I don't think anyone wants to speculate any more until you have at least one of the Smith girl birth certificates!

Hi All

I still have not been able to get the birth certificates of either Rose or Florence. It has been suggested that their date of birth are wrong?

However after following suggestions above I now have the marriage certificate of Henry and Rose, their parents.

Henry's father was James Smith, draper and lived in Northumberland. James married Bridget.
James and Bridget had several children including Henry of which were:
Thomas Smith 1855 –
William Henry Smith 1857 – 1911
John Smith 1860 –
Kathleen Smith 1862 –
Mary Ellen Smith 1865 –
Bridget Ann Smith

On another tree on ancestry which has both the sisters Florence and Rose, it gives the name of Rose's father as John so I am now wondering if this is the father of the two girls and that his brother Henry adopted the children.

Also Florence named her daughter Kathleen and Kathleen's daughter does vaguely remember a great aunt that the two sisters spent a lot of time with.

This one is so confusing and has been my biggest brick wall for some time but at least I now have a few more details about Henry and his parents, siblings!

Also to add I could see William and his siblings and parents on cencus records but in 1881 Mary was missing.
I think I have found her in prison at the age of 16.
There is also a Mary Ellen Smith being sentenced in 1888 but I can't see the details to confirm.
It might be correct and explain as Florence was born in 1888

there was a mary Ellen Smith tried in Salford in dec1888 and sentenced in Jan 1889? Is that the one you mean?

That Mary Ellen was age 20

I can't understand why you say you have been unable to get the birth certificiates for the girls. Where did you try and get them from?

You have been given the details of Roses registration in 1891 so you have everything you need to order the cert through the GRO.

Births Jun 1891
Smith Rose Ann Salford 8d 109


You also say that the two girls had to be adopted together. It is obvious from the census records that Florrie was with the family in 1891 before Rose was born so this information is not confirmed by the facts.

Maybe they are the wrong Rose and Florrie?

I have tried to get the birth certificates through 3 sources and all came back saying not available.
1st was through ancestry which cost me £22 which was refuned
2nd was through a bmd site which cost £6 something and came back not available so I purchased another that was relevant to another part of my family.
3rd my sister went to somewhere in manchester, a main office as I found out where to go and again came back not availble but we did managed to get the marriage of the parents. I think she went to the wrong place thpugh and not the main manchester records office.

The cencus is not wrong as the family know the addresses mantioned are known family homes.

I am going to the reggistry offices in Manchester in a few months time, meant to go last month, so will find out what is going wrong.

I wasn;t asking for more help about the two girls as I get the points made

It was only after doing a search for Henry's sister Mary that I realised I had stumbled upon a possible lead for a potential mum..