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Anthony do you have the marriage certificate of your Henry Houchin to Helen Mason in 1915. Does it name a Father at all. If you don't have it then this should be your next priority.

Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)
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Callinan Patrick McElligott Shoreditch 1c 371
Houchin Henry Mason Shoreditch 1c 371
Mason Helen Houchin Shoreditch 1c 371
McElligott Mary M Callinan Shoreditch 1c 371

I'm confused too Astra!!!

I have a feeling that Anthony has these Houchins confused and that Phoebe has absolutely nothing to do with Thomas.

I can't find any evidence to link Thomas Houchin born 1824 with Phoebe. There are links to Rebecca who married William Gosling but nothing to prove that Rebecca and Phoebe are sisters.

Thomas Houchin 1824 is from Kent and George Houchin (Phoebe's father???) was born in Norfolk............

What do you think Astra and Flick?

Looks like the Phoebe Houchin from Bow had a child

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Frederick George
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: 10 Apr 1892
Mother's name: Phoebe Houchin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar
Borough: Tower Hamlets
County: London

From the register of births in the Poplar Workhouse. It does say 'legitimate' against the entry but the following baptism shows no father

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederick George Name: Frederick George
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1892
Baptism Date: 22 Apr 1892
Mother's name: Phoebe Houchin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar
Borough: Tower Hamlets

Address - 60 Hewlett Road

Which is the same address for this Phoebe in 1891 - the daughter of George and Elizabeth

1891 England Census
about Phoebe Houchin Name: Phoebe Houchin
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Elizabeth Houchin
Gender: Female
Where born: Bow, London, England

Civil Parish: Stratford Le Bow St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bow
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Houchin 55
Bessie Houchin 32
Frederick Houchin 17
Albert Houchin 19
Rachael Houchin 15
Harry Houchin 13
******Phoebe Houchin 23
Thomas Jackson 50
Eliza Portwood 60
Maria Portwood 55


So, I suppose the logical question is - could this Phoebe have had another illegitimate child previously?

Blimey, this family is complicated!!!

In 1881 Thomas Houchin junior is living with his parents but is listed as married, although there is no wife with him.

This looks to be the wife and daughter in 1881

1881 England Census
about Frances Q. Houchin Name: Frances Q. Houchin
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Frances Houchin
Gender: Female
Where born: Rotherhithe

Civil Parish: Woolwich
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 84 Albert Rd

Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Arsenal
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frances Houchin 27 .....bricklayers wife....born Warwickshire
Frances Q. Houchin 1

Here they are in 1891 - Thomas is a widower

1891 England Census
about Frances Houchin Name: Frances Houchin
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas Houchin
Gender: Female
Where born: Rotherhithe, London, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
Town: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England


Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Houchin 32 ...bricklayer
Frances Houchin 11

Death for Frances

Deaths Mar 1889
Houchin Frances 35 W. Ham 4a 25

Remarriage to Esther??

Marriages Jun 1897
Crow Frederick William Woolwich 1d 2108
?****Houchin Thomas Woolwich 1d 2108
?****Jennings Esther Elizabeth Woolwich 1d 2108
Sharpe Jane Amelia Woolwich 1d 2108

I posted 1871 for Rebecca..............didn't you see it?

Found the Henry Houchin from the 1891 census in 1901

1901 England Census
about Henry W Houchin Name: Henry W Houchin
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Houchin
Mother's name: Esther E Houchin
Gender: Male
Where born: Silvertown, Essex, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Essex
Country: England


Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Canning Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 225
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Houchin 43 ....bricklayer....born Deptford (Kent has been crossed out)
Esther E Houchin 47 ...born Romford
Ernest T Houchin 17 ...born Silvertown....bricklayers apprentice
Henry W Houchin 15 ...born Silvertown...bricklayers apprentice


So, it looks like the Thomas Houchin junior from the 1871 census went into the same business as his father Thomas and the Henry Houchin living with William and Rebecca Gosling in 1891 is Thomas juniors son.

Got a sneaky feeling Ernest T Houchin is actually Thomas Ernest

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Thomas Ernest Houchin Name: Thomas Ernest Houchin
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 50

Just out of curiosity, Anthony - how do you know that Thomas had two daughters called Rebecca and Phoebe? Have you got them on a census together?

I can't find the 1861 census for Thomas Houchin and Sarah to confirm this.

The marriage for Rebecca definitely shows that Thomas Houchin, bricklayer is her father and the other marriages and census information all point to this being the same family. What evidence do you have to show that this Thomas is also Phoebe's father?

There is a Phoebe Houchin born 1868 in Bow on the census in 1871 and 1881 as the daughter of George and Elizabeth Houchin and on the 1891 with just Elizabeth, and a death in 1910 for a Phoebe Houchin born around 1870. I'm pretty sure this is the same Phoebe Celia that you found the birth for. I also have a feeling that the Phoebe Everett Houchin born and died in Tower Hamlets in 1865 is from the same family - her baptism shows parents as George and Elizabeth. So, I think it possible the parents called a second child Phoebe.


A Henry Houchin shows on the 1891 census as the nephew of William Gosling/Rebecca Houchin aged 5 months but there is no mention of his parents so we can't assume this is Phoebe without further proof.

My apologies - the 1891 census shows the same address for Rebecca Gosling and Thomas Houchin - 4 Frindley Cottages!!!!

Hi
All extremely interesting. Thanks for your efforts.

Free BMD gives a Phoebe Celia Houchin born 1868 in Poplar so maybe my information on 1865 for Phoebe's dob is wrong. Certainly the Phoebe of this family produced a son, Henry Houchin, on 12 June 1889.

Henry's third son is my brother-in-law.

Free BMD also shows the death of a Phoebe Houchin in 1910 aged 40 so it looks as if the Phoebe born 1868
is the likely one.

The only puzzling thing about Flicks post on the 1871 census is where is Phoebe? and where is Rebecca?
Phoebe would be 3 years old in 1871. Rebecca would have been 15. Did enumerators count only the people present in the house at the time?

What is interesting about the 1891 census posting is 'living next door to'. Thomas was living next door to the Goslings, not living with them.

It looks like the same family all the way from 1851 to 1891and a very good chance that this is what I'm looking for.
Again, Many Thanks.
TonyR

Just to confirm this is the same family - Rebecca's marriage

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Rebecca Eliza Houchin Name: Rebecca Eliza Houchin
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Spouse Name: William Gosling
Spouse Age: 34
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 21 May 1881
Parish: St Luke, Deptford
County: Kent
Borough: Lewisham
Father Name: Thomas Houchin .....bricklayer
Spouse Father Name: Oliver Gosling


Witnesses - Thomas Houchin and Frances Houchin

Address for bride - 4 Frindley Cottages

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Ellen Maude Houchin Name: Ellen Maude Houchin
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1874
Baptism Date: 3 Sep 1874
Father's name: Thomas Houchin ....bricklayer
Mother's name: Sarah Houchin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Mary
Borough: Southwark

Born 6th August 1862

Address at baptism - 4Frindley Cottages (the same as the marriages posted previously)

and on the same day

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frances Houchin Name: Frances Houchin
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1874
Baptism Date: 3 Sep 1874
Father's name: Thomas Houchin
Mother's name: Sarah Houchin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Mary
Borough: Southwark

Born 21st January 1866

Possible death for Thomas' son Richard, shown on the 1871 census but not on the 1881

Deaths Sep 1873
Houchin Richard 4 Greenwich 1d 495

Another sister getting married

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Ellen Houchin
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Spouse Name: Thomas Putley
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 03 Jan 1880
Parish: St Paul, Deptford
County: Kent
Borough: Lewisham
Father Name: Thomas Houchin .....bricklayer
Spouse Father Name: Daniel Putley

Witnesses - William Knight and Eliza Knight

Marriage for another sister

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Frances Houchin Name: Frances Houchin
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Spouse Name: William Abraham William
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 01 Jan 1888
Parish: Christ Church, Rotherhithe
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Houchin ...bricklayer
Spouse Father Name: William Williams


Witnesses - Thomas Houchin and Alice Williams

The address for the bride is the same on both these marriages entries - ??????? Cottages - sorry but I can't read the writing I'm afraid.

1861

Name: Rebecca Watson
Age: 73
Estimated birth year: abt 1788
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Tonbridge, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Wrotham
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Malling
Sub-registration district: Wrotham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 60
Household Members: Name Age
Rebecca Watson 73
Eliza Jarrett 70
Ruth Hansley 70
Ann Martin 85
Mary Seal 53

A marriage for a sister of Rebecca

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Emily Houchin
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Spouse Name: John Grimsdick ...clerk
Spouse Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 17 Oct 1874
Parish: St Luke, Deptford
County: Kent
Borough: Lewisham
Father Name: Thomas Houchin ....bricklayer
Spouse Father Name: John Grimsdick


Witnesses - Thomas Houchin and Rebecca Houchin

1871

Name: Rebecca Houchin
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Kent, England
Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: St John Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Household schedule number: 33

Phoebe Houchin was born in Poplar in 1865 and died at 1 year old but I don' think she belongs to this family

Births Dec 1865 (>99%)
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Houchin Phoebe Poplar 1c 638

Possibly 1851 - the Rebecca Watson from Flick's post is on this census too

1851 England Census
about Thomas Houchen Name: Thomas Houchen
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Wrotham

Civil Parish: Wrotham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Platt
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Malling
Sub-registration district: Aylesford
ED, institution, or vessel: 5c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 150
Household Members: Name Age
Auther Watson 64 ...carpenter...born Wrotham
Rebecca Watson 66 ....born Tonbridge
Thomas Houchen 25 ....bricklayer
Sarah Houchen 28 ...wife to Thomas

1871?????

Name: Thomas Houchin
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah Houchin
Gender: Male
Where born: Wrotham, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Rotherhithe
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 104
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Houchin 46 *******************Bricklayer
Sarah Houchin 48
Thomas Houchin 12
Ellen Houchin 8
Frances Houchin 5
Richard Houchin 2
Rebecca Watson 83

So, IF the previous census information is correct, then this could be Thomas in 1881

1881 England Census
about Thomas Houchin Name: Thomas Houchin
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah Houchin
Gender: Male
Where born: Wrotham, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Deptford St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 4 Robinsons Place
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Occupation: Bricklayer

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Houchin 55 ....bricklayer
Sarah Houchin 56 ...born Brenchley, Kent
Thomas Houchin 22 ...born Rotherhithe...bricklayer