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Do you want to give us their names and birth dates and we will go from there,

Yes having problems finding birth details for both my grandmothers if you are interested. TonyR

This will be Henry's death then:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Henry Houchin Name: Henry Houchin
Death Registration Month/Year: 1967
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Hackney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5b
Page: 634

No, the workhouse record I posted for 1901 was just the two boys. It was described as "the Workhouse School", so they were all children. By 1901 some Workhouses were fairly reasonable places to be, despite their dreadful history. You'd need to investigate that for yourself. I've no idea if the Frank was Frederick. You might even be able to find records for the Workhouse School, which might give admission details. I've really not a clue how to find them. Fortunately my family seem to have escaped the Workhouse apart from a couple of people who died there.

Henry may well have been born just down the road from the family cos there was a good woman living there who was used to delivering babies. This was quite common at that time, pre-NHS days. But it just sort of confirms that we are now likely to have got the right Henry.

Who knows why the boys were there? Perhaps they grew up there, or perhaps they just happened to be there on census night.

I have a situation in my own family where a young woman had an illegitimate child. She was from a fairly affluent family, and probably "betrothed" to a school-master, so the child was shipped to a workhouse so as not to jeopardise her future marriage to the schoolmaster. She married the schoolmaster and the child was never heard of again. I'm not proud of that, but there we are.

Madmeg.

PS - want any more help?

Madmeg
I've spoken to my sister again. You are right it is the person who registered the birth. named as E Houchin. She originally called it a witness.

Henry died on 5 March 1967 according to his son, my brother-in-law.

Perhaps Henry's family couldn't look after him or didn't want to and this is why he was in the workhouse.
Were the whole family there?
EDIT The cert address is 60 Hewlett road Bow.
The 1881 census shows the George and Elizabeth family living at 30 Hewlett road Bow. So Henry was born in the same road!
EDIT I understood my sister to mean that the baby was born at 60 Hewlett Rd but perhaps it is just the informants address. I will clarify with her tomorrow and put the answer here. TonyR

Tony, do you mean that the birth of Henry was registered by E Houchin? Birth certs don't have a witness as such. It was quite unusual for the birth to be registered by anyone other than the mother (particularly in the case of an illegitimate birth), so it must have been that Phoebe was too ill to do so. Is there an address given on the birth cert - of the baby' or the informant?

I'm still worried that you've not got the right Henry. He's obviously not the one who died in WW1 that I guessed at. Do you know when he did die? Can you post the details please?

It's really hard to get things right when the factors are not smooth and related. Don't worry about time wasted, it is all good research. But we want to get it right for you.

What about those 2 children in the Workhouse in 1901, folks?

CherryBlossom
I have since spoken to my sister and she reminds me that Henry's birth certificate carries the name of a witness-
E Houchin. If the George and Elizabeth family is the right one then E Houchin is either Phoebe's mother or her elder sister. More likely her mother.

It's been an interesting afternoon trying to unravel this one Tony!! I've enjoyed flexing the old (ish!) brain cells.

I can see why you may have been drawn to Thomas Houchin's family originally. When you get the marriage certificate do come back to us with all the information - possibly one of Phoebe's siblings may have acted as witness (if he had contact with his mother's family as he doesn't appear on any census with Phoebe) and that will help pin down the family for you.

IF the family of George and Elizabeth Houchin are the correct family then you are lucky enough to have ancestors originating in Norfolk and there are amazing parish records online on Family Search.

Madmeg
I think you have got it right. I think that the Tower hamlets family is the one I'm looking for. I think that the marriage certificate will show no father for Henry but I'll get one to make sure.
I started to consider the family of Thomas Houchin partly because my brother-in-law believed his family had originated either in Kent or Essex and Thomas Houchin was born in Kent. Sorry for any time wasted by anybody.
Many Thanks for the efforts. TonyR.

MadMeg
The birth certificate of Henry, my brother-in-laws father shows his mother as phoebe Houchin. I don't have a marriage certificate for Henry and Helen Mason but Henry's birth certificate shows a blank for the father and I assume this means he was illigitimate. Henry did fight in WW1 and in fact won the Military Medal.
He survived the war and I met him several times as a boy when his son married my sister. This was in the 1950's.

CherryBlossom
I think you are right about the family in Tower Hamlets. I found them in the 1881 census. Also consider -
Free BMD shows only two Phoebe Houchins born in the whole country between 1837 and 1889.
1) Phoebe Houchin Poplar 1C 638
2) Phoebe Celia Houchin Poplar 1c 627.
As you say, the first one died so the second one must be Henry's mother. Conclusion. I have been chasing the wrong family for about a year now. I think the family I am looking for is the Tower hamlets family. TonyR.

Anthony, the 5-month Henry could easily be a mistake. The child above him on the census is labelled as "Under 1", so it could be that child who is 5 months old, as the Henry who is son of Thomas and Esther should be 5 years old. I think that is a simple mistake.

But I don't know where the 1889 Henry is in 1891 - not with his mother and grandparents.

Can I just go back, cos I do want you to get this right.

How do you know that your brother in law's grandmother was a Phoebe? Or that she was unmarried at the time of his birth. That birth cert that you have COULD be for a totally different child.

I think I must agree with Flick that you should get the marriage cert of Henry and Helen Mason and be entirely satisfied that there is no father named for Henry (or of course that he lied), and that he is aged 26.

You really have to take this research in small steps where there is any lack of proof.

It seems posible that both "your" Henry, and Henry William (son of Thomas and Esther) died in 1917 overseas serving in WW1. No ages or further details are given to verify who they are.

EDIT - The girls did a lot of work unearthing baptisms and marriages for the daughters of Thomas, and it seems unnecessarily. They won't have minded, they are a good lot. But really you should have started your post by saying what you definitely knew, and what you were guessing at.

So please do them, and me, a favour, and let us know when you have that marriage certificate. We like to know if we've got it right!

Cherryblossom.
I don't. I have no real evidence that Thomas had a daughter called Phoebe. My only link is the presence of a Henry Houchin with Rebecca's family (the Goslings) in the 1891 census. I know that Henry's mother was Phoebe Houchin because I have Henry's birth certificate.
The Henry with the Goslings is I think, not old enough at 5 months. My Henry was born 12 June 1889. I think that the Henry with the Goslings is another one. I don't now believe that Thomas Houchin had a daughter called Phoebe.
TonyR.

I was getting there, girls, a bit slow in my confusion. What do you think of this being the boys in 1901?

1901 England Census
about Henry Houchin
Name: Henry Houchin
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: N

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Forest Gate
ED, institution, or vessel: Forest Gate District School
Henry Houchin 10
Frank Houchin 8

It does say Frank, I was hoping it was "Fredk".

EDIT - there's no suitable Frederick on the 1901.

Team effort Astra!! Wouldn't have looked at Phoebe 1868 if you hadn't posted about the earlier Phoebe's birth and death.

Well done Cherry. I think you've cracked it!

So this, I think is the correct Henry in 1911. Born in Old Ford London which is in the Poplar area.

JONES, Caroline Head Widow F 53 1858 Artificial Florist Finsbury London VIEW
JONES, Robert Son Single M 17 1894 Reading Boy Hackney London VIEW
JONES, Beatrice Daughter Single F 15 1896 Artificial Flower - Maker Hackney London VIEW
>>HOUCHIN, Henry Boarder Single M 20 1891 Warehouse Porter Old Ford London VIEW
BROWN, Martha Boarder Single F 21 1890 Cigar Leaf Striper Shoreditch London VIEW
GOVETT, John Boarder Married M 66 1845 Commercial Traveller Old Cleeve Somerset VIEW

Address:
53 de Beauvoir Road Kingsland N E County:
London

My thinking exactly Astra!!

I think the Phoebe Everett Houchin born in 1865 who died as an infant was the first Phoebe born to George and Elizabeth who subsequently had Phoebe Celia Houchin in 1868.

Phoebe Celia Houchin possibly then went on to have at least two illegitimate children - Henry in 1889 and Frederick in 1892 - and died unmarrried in 1910.

Aaah.............thanks for that Cherry. I was restricting my search to Essex which is why I couldn't find it. I think perhaps then that this is where Anthony has gone wrong. He has the birth certificate for Henry born 1889 in Poplar and found him on the 1891 census as 5 months old and the nephew of Rebecca but born in Essex and assumed that Henry's mother Phoebe from the birth certificate must be Rebeccas sister. When in actual fact he belongs to a completely different family.

I'm also very confused by this. We don't know which birth certificate Anthony has and whether he has the marriage certificate or not. Like you I think Phoebe is possibly a red herring. If she was born in 1865 then she should be on the 1871 census but there isn't a mention of her with the family of Thomas the bricklayer. I am thinking that perhaps Anthony has tried to piece it together but maybe got it wrong somewhere along the line.
I'll send him a PM and see if he will come back to the thread to answer some questions.

Is this possibly the birth certificate that Anthony has??

Births Sep 1889
Houchin Henry Poplar 1c 532


Which is the same registration district for

Births Jun 1892
Houchin Frederick George Poplar 1c 672b


This would point to Phoebe being the daughter of George rather than Thomas.