Find Ancestors

As per JC's request, from the Drouin Collection:

Name: George Webb
Spouse: Charlotte Thoburn
Event Year: 1912
Event: Mariage (Marriage)
Religion: Presbyterian
Place of Worship or Institution: Montréal (Presbyterian Mac Vicar Memorial)
Province: Québec (Quebec)

Original says he was a fireman, of full age. she was a minor but with consent of her mother, sole surviving parent. Witnesses George William Thoburn and Ethel Thoburn

I've PMed MM to ask her to take a look.

I'm wondering what you think about the suggestion mgnv made and I seconded: that you obtain the service records for the George Webb in WWI married to Charlotte. You haven't given your thoughts on that. Wait til we see whether there's anything in Drouin to rule him in or out, I suppose, but otherwise, it seems like an angle you aren't trying.

I don't understand the: Lorraine can't help you. I thought she had worldwide Ancestry access, so would be able to search the Drouin Collection.

Maybe I can find somebody else with. MargaretManson's around, I think.

I have been trying lots of different angles, writing to anyone that will listen to me, all to no avail at the moment but am feeling more comfortable with what I know.

I wrote to Lorraine and she could not help me at the moment.

I have looked on Home children and there are no George Webb according to the web site but from someone who is searching for every one I have seen several of them, none of them at the moment with the anything like the correct date, which is a good thing for George but not for me. If he was not sent to Canada where was he in England 1891 and 1901.

I am joining a forum to try and find him in the army prior to WW1

Need his marriages census and naturisation, not much is it. I do not think

regards Sandra

Sandra - Alywin is not on a modern street map (I can get free maps as part of my auto club membership), so I'm not sure which direction it ran. but if it ran away from the river rather than parallel to it, then a # like 500 is more likely to be in St Antoine ward.
Montreal St. Antoine is a census district (# 180) and has 50 subdistricts.
Montreal Ste. Marie is a census district (# 183)

I can't find Alywin in 1911.
I can find a whole mess of Parthenais, but not 1455.

I don't have a sub at Ancestry.ca but, like anyone else, I can do a free search (but not see full details.

So Search 1911 in Quebec - district=Montreal, place of habitation=624 Parthenais (one can leave the # out, and seeing as it's Ancestry transcribing, just enter Parth* in p.o.h.)
Anyway, at #624, I get

View Record Name Parent or spouse names Home in 1911(Sub-District, District, Province) Birth Year Birthplace Relation View Image
View Record Israel Cardinal name info, Montreal Ste MarieQuebec 1877 location info
[and others]

A search at AG gets

1911 Census of Canada
Home / 1911 / Quebec / Montreal Papineau, Ste. Marie / 44 Ste. Marie ward / page 2
24 15 Cardinal Israël M Head M Mar 1877 34 1901

with the LAC image at:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002077896.pdf

NB the Pont Jacques-Cartier ramp is midway between Ave Papineau & Parthenais St.

Dear mgnv, I have tried to look for a census under Maisonneuve for 1910 and have not been able to find the correct Charlotte. The address on the 1914 attestation was 500 Alywin Street Montreal, would that come under the same census region. Is there any way I can find this out please?

Re Drouin records - I've only looked for one woman's death - my dad's aunt - and she was indexed under her maiden surname - it was a Methodist burial in Montreal.

Re George CEF # 63912 - this is an MD 5 # (MD 5 = central Ont). It's clear he did enlist in Montreal - his same day medical location is even clearer, but the 3rd bn was formed on the nucleus of the Royal Regiment of Canada, Toronto. Why George is there, we'll probably never know.

Incidentally, since he had served in the RA pre-war, and he didn't serve in the British Army in WW1, there might be his RA service records at FMP - I've not looked. I guess he was regular army, done his turn and was rolled over into reserves, but excused British call-up service on account of his serving with the CEF.

Re 22/1/18 - Could be his demob date, but only way to know is to get both sets of his service record. Since you're doing this for a friend, I can understand your reluctance. My guess is they'ld probably cost abt 30 GBP incl postage - his first set is likely to have a chunk of medical records in it.
His second set might be quite slim - it's not clear if hewent overseas or served in some training capacity, most likely at Camp Valcartier.

Named for the nearby village of St-Gabriel-de-Valcartier, this was the largest training camp in Canada. It's abt 20km N of Quebec City, which is abt 270km E of Montreal. In WW1, most of the enlistees from Ont & Que trained there for several months, then went to England for more training before shipping off to France. In the early days, they pitched tents on Salisbury Plain, but later on they got a proper camp at Shorncliffe, just outside Folkestone, maybe 50km E of Hastings. There were also a number of Canadian hospitals around Shorncliffe (and over 300 Canadian graves at Shorncliffe Military Cemetery). If your guy had gotten wounded at Passchendaele, then his service record would indicate a number of unit transfers, firstly from his bn to some Regimental Aid Post, then to say the 1st Can Field Ambulance Co, then to the 2nd British Casualty Clearing Station, then to the 3rd British General Hospital at Boulogne say, then to the 4th Can General Hospital at Shorncliffe, then to a convalescent hospital near Montreal, then discharge (or something like that). I don't know how big the Canadian component was in this chain in the earlier years.

If you do decide to get his military records, then there's a link on the CEF search help link I referred you to earlier that takes you to a search page for Canadian War Diaries - this are the unit logs of what happened day by day in the 3rd Battalion say. One can also see those of Fld Amb Cos, brigades, Divisions, etc, but the higher up, then the less immediate relevance. They rarely mention by name other ranks (i.e., below officer rank).

There's a quite readable free book.
Author: Nicholson, G.W.L
Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War: Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/oh-ho/detail-eng.asp?BfBookLang=1&BfId=22

You could ask Lorraine in her thread on Records Office to check in the Drouin Collection.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1239943

Make sure she knows that you have a thread already (I'd give the link) and that all you're asking for is to see whether there are George Webb marriages in Quebec, possibly to a Charlotte and/or a Juliette, and whether there are any details.

I think you'd be well advised to send for the military records of the George married to Charlotte, as mgnv suggested. Under both regimental numbers, I guess, as it certainly seems to be the same person.

Before that, if someone with worldwide access would look in the Drouin Collection at Ancestry for George Webb marriages and see whether any light can be shed, it could be helpful.

no need to answer the attestation question, see what you mean, I thought these were 2 different people but they are not, come to think of it the photo I saw was of his semi left side. At the top of the second attestation it says 22.1.18. could that have been when he was demobbed?

Sandra

Still thinking about this will have a look for myself or try to, are you saying that George had 2 attestation papers, one before and one after he was injured, which may account for 2 addresses.

My own grandad was injured at Passendale, lay for 3 days in the field before someone found him, sent to London hospital patched up and sent back with a different service number because I think he was then a division for invalids.

As to giving wrong birth years, when I have my next birthday I shall have been the same age for 18 months according to what I have been telling people, very senior moment, it comes to all of us. I am 1 year older than an aging pop star and it was only when they gave his age I worked mine out correctly. Sandra

Just had a quick glance at all you have found out for me. I too have had a look at the George married to Charlotte, the birth date is correct except for the year.

George had two relationships, his first wife dying - so could his first wife could have been Charlotte and his second wife Juliette.

The Lieta one was not ours she was actually Letty and came from Hastings.

The other army George that you found I thought was scarred on his face, have seen a photo of George, must admit was only a semi side view and there were no scars.

George D - do not yet know what the D is but saw two born 1888 (ignored these as I thought 1889 was true but not now certain)

Been on 1891 census and looked for D second name only found one up to now and not mother Emily.

George did not have any children that the family in England knew about.


ps
Re read about the attestation papers, the ones that I have re wife Charlotte address is 500 Alywin Street , Montreal. dated oct. 29th 1914. he was in No 3 field Artillery he has tatoos girl with clasped hand on left arm and heart on right arm. He was only short which if he is the correct one applies also to his two younger sisters.

I hope I have answered all you queries if not please remind me. You have all done so much work I have to keep re-reading it all.





regardsSandra

Yes, Parthenais, duh. ;)

Anybody want to have a look at this one in the UK 1911? I don't pay.

MILITARY WEBB GEORGE 1889 22 Overseas Military


Two GR members have a George Webb 1889 Islington in their trees. It could be worth an ask.

Births Sep 1889
Webb George Andrew Islington 1b 323

Here's the images for Janey's bilingual Filiatrault family:

http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002064849.pdf
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002064850.pdf
[Leita's pob=USA immig 1910 - she's RC, so might be in the non-Quebec Drouin records - also might be in US 1910 census - since sis Laura was b 1898 in USA , family s.b. on 1900 US - her 1911 addy is 1200 Chabot]

Re George CEF # 63912 notes tattoos, but no mention of scars
George CEF# 513345 has tattoos, plus scars all over head & left shoulder & right cheek.
# 513345 is a CASC Trg Dpo # from MD2 (Military District 2 includes Montreal).

My reading of George/Charlotte's addy is 1255 Parthenais St. This is parallel to and 1 to 2 blocks NE of the Pont Jacques Cartier ramp. I guess a # like 1255 would be a block or 2 SE of Rue Ste Catherine which itself is just a block SE of Boul Maisonneuve, and would also most likely be in the Maisonneuve census subdistrict. I think the area (which is a couple of km away from the Angus Locomotive Works) has undergone some reconstruction. [I was unable to find some streets there for my own folks.]

The 3rd Bn was in the 1st Brigade of the 1st Can Division, and was the first div to go overseas.
One might reasonably infer that George was invalided out, but you'ld really need to see his service record to confirm that.

If you go to the CEF search URL janey posted:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php

but instead of doing a search, click on "search help", then there's a link there that tells you how to order his record. It's not digitized - you get xerox copies at $0.40 per page (plus postage).

The name isn't quite John Smith, but it's not uncommon ... but it would be somewhat less common in Montreal.

Might George have had a son (and grandson) named for himself?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/todays-paper/DEATHS/3539966/story.html

Webb, Violet WEBB, Violet February 17, 1929 - September 13, 2010
WEBB, Violet May (nee Field) on Monday, September 13, 2010.
>> Beloved wife of the late George Webb.
[names of living people, children and grandchildren, omitted - JC]
A private family service will be held at a later date. Published in the Montreal Gazette from 9/16/2010 - 9/17/2010

If your George did have a first marriage, he might have had children with his first wife.

Given the timing, that would be a mighty (and unfortunate) coincidence.

It's interesting that the George in the CEF with wife Charlotte hada birthdate 14 August 1888. I know from experience that people sometimes tended to know their birthday, but not the year! My grandfather thought he was born in 1900 all his life, until he retired ... a year early, it turned out when he got his birth cert to claim pension.

That one was born in London, England, and had served in the 3rd Battn CEF already. And I can't read where he enrolled, either. But Charlotte's address seems to be 1255 Parthenon St, Mtl. I guess the place of attestation is a badly scrawled Montreal (the L rather than the T got crossed).

Given the age difference between him and the Juliette you've found, it's quite possible it was a second marriage.

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/661818a.gif

I stuck a couple more things in that post above.

What I'm confused about is the travel records with Leita. Is that not him then?

Dear Janey glad you are on board again, have been sent the papers for the boat, he is George D. Webb born 14.8.89. retired his wife is Juliette born 25.7.1911, housewife, the place they are visiting is correct. They are both Canadian citizens. Set off from Quebec

Have looked for a birth of George D Webb and of course cannot find one, nothing is easy. Am working my way through the 1891 census with no luck at the moment.

Will check to see if he served in British army, I have previously looked at atestation papers for Canada, there were a few with no paperwork attached. Talk again soon thanks for your help