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I'd like to say Hi and many thanks to:

Rose - Brummiejan and madmeg

their input on the subject of my grandad ARTHUR CECIL MARTIN

I've spent some time investigating all the suggestions and information you gave me and have decided to go the way of Arthur NOT being born in Tasmania 1. Because he on claims to have been a "citizen" and not born there, secondly because both his marriage certificates state that his father was deceased, and lastly because I have now ascertained that he was actually born 27 Dec 1867 and that his birth was REGISTERED JFM 1868.
Thankyou one and all for steering me in the right direction by making me take fresh looks at all possibilities of his origin.
Many, many thanks.

After your message yesterday, I sat down and put together a skeletal picture of the things you asked about AND THOUGHT I'd actually despatched it. However, the despatch couldnt have happened, so here goes.
I am 99pc certain that the Arthur Cecil Martin that married Elizabeth Marshall on 2 Jun 1892 IS MY GRANDFATHER. The defo facts I have at present are:
An Arthur Cecil Martin married Elizabeth Marshall on 5 June 1892 and had a child named Cecil Arthur Martin who was born in Southwark in 1st qtr 1894.
Elizabeth died 4th qtr 189, but what happened to their child Cecil (1894)
MY Arthur Cecil Martin went on to marry MY grandma Thirza Goward on 26 Jul 1902 in Roxwell, Essex.
Because of my boyhood memories, I always believed that grandad Arthur
was "from" Tasmania but I'm talking about my memories of my early teens; nothing was ever writen in stone. Yet there are mentions of his "link" with Tasmania in the 1911 Census but:
His age on his death certificate was 64 in 1932. (Born 1868?)
His age on his 2nd marriage certificate was 28 in 1902 (Born 1874?)
(He was quoted as being a widower on 1902 certificate and on both certificates his father was named as James Martin - deceased).
His age on his 1st marriage certificate was 24 in 1892. (Born 1868?)
The only Tasmanian link I can get is that an Arthur Cecil Martin was born to a John and Elizabeth (nee coutts) Martin in 1874 in Tasmania.
I know I need to be committed but I'm beginning to wonder which route I should follow. Maybe, just maybe, I haven't remembered enough or maybe Tasmania is dreamland BUT why would it appear in the 1911 census, only my grandad knows. Wish I could talk this out because I've promised my children a properly printed family tree book to be given them in due course. Should I put it in the hands of a professional "tree searcher" or ????? Regards Ron

I think we need to start again, Ronald. I am having a bad evening, not thinking straight. While I get myself together, would you please list what Evidence you have of things, starting with the most recent.

I will come back when my brain is more in gear.

Rose, sorry I missed your question about where Arthur Cecil Martin was in 1901 but I have been making a lot of enquiries which have not been fruitful. As for where he was in 1901, I cant find anything that links him FOR SURE to anyone or anywhere that has given me even the slightest hope of a solution. I'm not sure where I go from here except to say that FIRST his death certificate says he was 64yr old when he died in 1932 (thus born 1868) and the place he died was definitely where I used to visit my gran Thirza, SECOND his marriage lines to Thirza show his father as James (cattle famer - deceased), that he was a widower, but his age and date of this marriage indicate he was born 1874! THIRDLY I hold a marriage certificate dtd 5 Jun 1892 between him and Elizabeth Marshall also showing his father again as James (deceased), but aged 24 in 1892 thus born 1868. LASTLY comes the family Trevett who quote an Arthur Cecil Martin born 1868 to a James Martin and Lucy Trevett and according to this birth certificate, was born in Walworth (Surrey) 29 Dec 1867 BUT wasn't registed until 17 Jan 1868. As for the Tasmania Hobart citizen quote on the 1912 census, all that does is 'confirm' what was 'common knowledge' in my boyhood but was it just simple nonsense. The question remains, do I follow the Trevett lineage given that his first marriage was in Walworth? The more I reread this message, the more I 'just dont know' what to do even though the Trevett lineage seems the more obvious. I actually believe I should just continue following all the other sides of this coin until my passion for the Martin lineage takes hold again. Ron

If Arthurs sat 'upstairs' right now, I wonder if he realises just how confused he's making his Grandson (me)!
One minute I'm thinking he had everything todo with Tasmania and the next ----London! Oh for someone who "can genuinely contact the other side" Ron

Ron,

What do you mean by your last posting?

That's his son's birth. I posted that on Oct 12th.

Rose

Cecil James Martin born JFM 1894 St Saviours, Southwark 1d 63.

Hi Ron,

That's what I said earlier. His death and first marriage put his birth c1868.

Rose

Its a bit of a "cow" this one, cos each way I turn I find a brick wall. Ive got Arthurs death cert and it says he was 64 when he died in 1932 that = born 1868 dunnit!!!! omg
Ron

Hi Ron,

What was Arthur's age in the second marriage?

The rest of the info doesn't help too much as Arthur's occupation varies.

Seems he chose exotic names for his children. Where did Fritz and Hermann come from? Is there a German connection?

Rose

June 5th 1892 (1st marriage - Walworth, London)
Arthur Cecil Martin 24yr old batchelor,profession - florist, married
Elizabeth Marshall 21yr old spinster.
Arthurs father was Joseph Marshall and him and Rosina, Elizabeths yongest sister were the witnesses according to the certificate. Joseph Marshall was listed as an Engineer, whilst Arthurs father was listed as Deceased.
July 26th 1902
Arthurs second marriage took place at Cooksmill Green Chapel, Roxwell and was to Thirza Goward a 19r old spinster whose father, Samuel Ezekiel Goward was listed as a Gardener. Arthur was listed as a widower and an Agricultural Labourer whilst his father was listed as (Deceased) Cattle Farmer. Ellan Parrish and Mary Ann Goward (nee Horsenell) were the witnesses.
Regards, Ron

Enjoy the wedding Ron.

Get back to us when you can with all the details from the 2 marriage certs.


I wonder what happened to Cecil James? Wish I could find him in 1901.

Rose

This falls into line with the marriage to Elizabeth Marshall taking place in Walworth, Yes!
The Tasmania link looks very much as though it may have been a red herring.
Ron

I'm backing away from the Tazzy link for a few days. The marriage certs show James (Arthurs father) on both of them AND they show James as deceased.
Appreciate yor input.
Ron

Hi Rose,
Yes, you are right. Have added Regn details to my tree.
Will have a purge on the other "loadsa info" you've put on this set-up for me when I get back from grandsons wedding in a couple of days.
Many thanks,
Ron
ps where do you get your patience from?

Maybe he gave his father's name as Jim and the Aussie official thought he said John. Or maybe his father was known as Jack, and the Aussie official interpreted that a being a nickname for John (which is common).

Did either of the marriage certs give an occupation for his father?

He appears to have completed the 1911 census himself - and very nice handwriting for a carter back then, indicating an education? One child had died by then.

I think you need to put Australia in your heading, to attract those members with access to such records.

Is this Elizabeth's death?

Deaths Dec 1899
Martin Elizabeth 28 St.Geo. H. Sq. 1a 400

Rose

Ronald,

His first marriage and death put him being born c1868:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Arthur Cecil Martin
Name: Arthur Cecil Martin
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Warshall
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 05 Jun 1892
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Walworth
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: James Martin

Deaths Sep 1932
Martin Arthur C 64 Chelmsford 4a 512

What age is given on the 2nd marriage and who were the witnesses?

Rose

I honestly think I'm right BUT am still open to ideas. Did Arthur lie about coming from Tasmania to hide a "problem" or did he hear his dad John actually being called James, if you get what I mean. Ron

Ronald,

Don't you think it's more than a coincidence that there's a Arthur Cecil James born exactly the right time in Walworth with a father called James who was also deceased at the time of his first marriage?

There are very few Arthur Cecil Martins on Ancestry and this one happens to match on all accounts.

What are the odds of that?

Rose