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Might FMP have a better copy of the image?

Don't know what Q this is but can't see it on Ancestry or FreeBMD:

KENNY Katharine Greenwich London 1919

Julie

Yes just had a look thank you. I will give them a ring in the morning as I think that is right. it makes perfect sense. what a find. I am sooooooo happy with this. I am logging off now but this is great thank you thank you thank you

I'd take FBG's advice there, Clare.

If you want me to send you a copy of that image, send me your email address by private message and I'll send it on.

That is amazing!!!!!!!! that def seems to fit everything and makes perfect sense. you are a star!!!!!!

Its a possible,but I cant read it.
Suggestion?

Gro will do a search either side of a birth year without ref numbers,but it does take 2/3 weeks for them to come back to you with or without a result,I know as I have spoken to them about it and have one in at the moment with fathers name added.
£9.25p and ALL money back if nothing found.
I would get all the details I know together and then phone GRO and order over the phone with this one as its slightly difficult.

Edit.
OR ring Greenwich Reg Office and ask them about it as that page is spoilt on the index.

Well here's one to rot your socks.

It may be this one. No, it isn't this one, this is the first one under KENNY in the list. But this one takes you there:

Name: K??
Mother's Maiden Surname: Kenny
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1919
Registration district: Tynemouth
Registration county: Cumberland, Northumberland/Westmorland
Volume Number: 10b
Page Number: 358

Kenny starts at the bottom of the first column and so of course continues at the top of the next. The last one at the bottom of the first column is John. (The K?? one is the first on the list so it obviously isn't K; could be Ann?)

So what can anyone read at the top of the next column?

This is the link to the image at Ancestry:

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=view&r=an&dbid=8782&iid=
ons_b19191az-0618&fn=&ln=K%3f%3f&st=d&ssrc=&pid=43481031

The top of the second column is a big black blotch.

Is there any chance the first entry at the top of the second column is Kathleen? I think it is. And maybe mother's name is Kenny?

The district can't possibly be read.

The page number is four digits. Greenwich page numbers have four digits.

The two Manning-Kenny-Hurley births were vol 1d pp. 1638 and 1738.

Here's an example of a birth registered in Greenwich in Q1 1919:

Name: Albert Smith
Mother's Maiden Surname: Randall
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1919
Registration district: Greenwich
Registration county: Greater London
> Volume Number: 1d
> Page Number: 1156

If you search for surname Ken* registered Q1 1919, there are a couple of dozen shown at Ancestry as Ken?? because of this. And there are Kenn? and Kenn??t, etc. No idea which might stand for the one at the top of column 2. Ancestry (edit - I meant FreeBMD) actually gives *no* Kenny births for Q1 1919.

Anybody do any better at that than I can, and what do we think of that possibility??

So I was thinking along the right lines for searching for a death!

Well then here we go, I think:

Name: Kathleen Mitchell
>> Birth Date: 18 Dec 1918
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1999
Age at death (estimated): 80
Registration district: Southwark
Inferred County: London
Register number: C13A
District and Subdistrict: 2511C
Entry number: 36


Now, that doesn't mean the date of birth in that record is correct. I find that the birthday (day and month) usually are, even if the year is off.

That's illustrated by the fact that both that record and your mum give the same birthday, different years!


And this brings me back to a birth I'd been eyeing for some time.

Name: Kathleen Cordwell
Mother's Maiden Surname: Hurley
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1919
Registration district: Bethnal G
Registration county: Greater London
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 176

Except, absolute rats, there is a John Cordwell + Amy Hurley marriage in Bethnal Green, possibly, in 1903, and several other births there up to 1927.

So that birth is ruled out too.

she may be registered deceased under kathleen mitchell as she lived with a stan mitchell but they never married. she def used his name. I will def get mum to find the info you suggest. I have to put little one to bed now but will keep you posted and let you know more as I find it. I also found out today that william lynch you mum knew as her dad may not have been adopted at all. it was suggested by kathleen. I also found out that kathleen brothers and sisters were very likely to of all had different fathers.This was suggested by stan mitchell
what a lovely family!!!! unfortunatly my mum cant remember which hospital she died. all i know is london!
thank you x

Any chance Kathleen was living with someone else and going by his surname when she died?

Name: Kathleen Irene Skillen
Birth Date: 18 Dec 1920
Death Registration Month/Year: May 1999
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: Worthing
Inferred County: West Sussex
Register number: 4B21C
District and Subdistrict: 7864B
Entry number: 20


That's the only Kathleen born on 18 Dec 1920 who died in 1999.

edit -- not that one -- Kathleen I Fairbrother was registered first quarter 1921 and married Skillen. I'll just leave it here for ruling out.

Ah, the little things that jog the memory! (Ta for the full 1911, FannyByGaslight!)

Can't see a death around Aug 1999 that seems to match well. Does your mum have any idea where she died?

No rush, gotta wait for certificates anyhow. Do get one of the Manning-Kenny-Hurley births too, though. That seems like maybe the only way to find out who Mr. Manning was.

my mum also said that the grandad was a rag dealer so this too seems very true. you are so good at this.she is applying for the marraige cert as we speak

thank youso so much janeycanuck and everyone else.I have a two year old so had to disapear quickly and I really wish I could have stayed with you. didnt even get time to write a message, you know what toddlers are like. My mum is so happy to have this info and all that re manning and kenny makes so much sense. my mum is trying to remember where kathleen died. She thinks it was aug 1999. They were not close unfortunatly.
thanks again I cant tell you how much this means

I agree with you JaneyC


Births Mar 1887
HURLEY Nora Greenwich 1d 1071

The marriage in 1912, that is?

Marriages Jun 1912
Hurley Norah Kenny Greenwich 1d 1857
KENNY Martin Hurley Greenwich 1d 1857


I think her age is likely understated in 1911.

I'd make this her in 1901:

Name: Norah Hurley
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Servant
Where born: Deptford, London, England
Civil parish: Greenwich


Oh, and of course I'd make the "married 6 years" one of those census fibs to account for the children. ;)


I'd thought of going hunting back, but thought it wise to have Kathleen's own identity better established first.

I'd suggest that Clare get the Lynch-Kenny marriage certificate and one of the Kenny-Manning-Hurley birth certificates and see what they have to say.

And maybe the Kenny-Hurley marriage certificate for good measure.

I couldn't find a marriage in 1905/6 for this couple so I would assume it could actually be the marriage in 1910... Edit 1912
Norah would of only been 15 years at marriage if she had been married 6 years in 1911?

1911

KENNEY, Martin Head Married M 25 1886 Rag Dealer Rougham Yorkshire
KENNEY, Norah Wife Married 6 years
F 21 1890 Greenwich
KENNEY, Mark Son M 2 1909 Deptford
KENNEY, Daniel Son M 1 1910 Deptford

Registration District:
Greenwich Sub District:
Deptford East Enumeration District:
3 Parish:
St Paul Deptford

Address:
41 Giffin St Deptford County:
London

Now, to get back to "Ernest Patrick Kenny" -- he didn't exist.

Norah Hurley's husband was Martin Kenny.

He could have been Ernest Patrick Manning, and Kathleen made the necessary adjustment.

This was not at all uncommon -- for instance, when my famous Hill/Monck gr-grfather married the first time as Ernest Hill, he correctly named his father as Francis Hoare Hill. When he married the second time under his fake surname, he named his father as Francis Monck. When people lied, they tended to keep a grain of truth. ;)

It might also be that her mother's father was Ernest Patrick Hurley, she had an uncle Ernest Patrick, etc.

I don't see any record of an Ernest Patrick Manning.

But the birth certificate of one of the children registered as both Kenny and Manning might give the answer.

These names -- Hurley, Kenny, at least -- are Irish; I don't know about Manning - ? So Kathleen's father could be absent from all English records.

Where'd you go, Clare?? ;)

I think this is a perfect example of how databases and search engines (and people who know how to tweak and trick them) are way more likely to come up with answers than any professional genealogist!

Can you tell us (or remind me) when/where Kathleen died, if you know?

Interestingly, that 1921 Kathleen birth was registered two ways as well:

Births Mar 1921
Mannering Kathleen Mannering Kensington 1a 145
Manning Kathleen Manning Kensington 1a 145

(There's a Walter Kenny mother Smith on the same page as well, pure coincidence I imagine.)


But -- if the Harry Kenny/Mannering birth 1921 is your Kathleen's brother, that 1921 Kathleen birth in the same quarter can't be your Kathleen.

I checked the image. The original registration was as Mannering. There's a handwritten addition to the list as Manning. Must have been a spelling mistake the first time.