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I couldn't find Sobieski Clements or Joseph Mortlock who are together in the 1861 census in Jersey..........but now you have mentioned a Sophie Clements in Jersey in 1851 i took a look.


1851 Channel Islands Census
about Sophia Clements Name: Sophia Clements
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: England
Civil Parish or Township: St Helier
Town: St Helier
County/Island: Jersey
Country: Channel Islands
Registration district: Jersey
Household Members: Name Age
Sophia Clements 51 (Widow)
Rosa Clements 20
Clement Clements 19
Jane Clements 17
France Clements 13
Joseph Nortlock 7


I would say Sophie is actually Sobieski (She has her children with her) and Joseph Nortlock is Joseph Mortlock who i believe to be her daughter Caroline's son.

Joseph is a "Butcher" in the 1861 census which would tie in with Rose and Francis marriage details...


1861 England Census
about Joseph Mortlock Name: Joseph Mortlock
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Plumstead
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Plumstead
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Mortlock 45 (Butcher employing 1 man)
Mary A Mortlock 39 (Wife)
Joseph Mortlock 32 (Butcher)

Res: Butchers, Sandy Hill Road, 8 Bright Terrace.

I can't find Caroline in 1851 but this is a possibilty for Joseph with a son Henry.

1851 England Census
about Joseph Mortlock Name: Joseph Mortlock
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Brother
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Waterloo Road Second
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Mortlock 34 (Beer Shop Keeper) Lambeth
Joseph Mortlock 27 (Wid) Barman
Henry Mortlock 5 (Nephew) Lambeth
Henry Manning 40 (Visitor)

Which would tie in with..

Deaths Sep 1849 (>99%)
Mortlock Caroline Lambeth 4 516

And the reason why Rose is a Visitor here in 1851...


1851 England Census
about Rosa Mortlock Name: Rosa Mortlock
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church First
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Saundy 52
Mary Saundy 53
Alfred Saundy 23
Rosa Saundy 21
Edward Saundy 16
George Saundy 11
Thomas Saundy 7
Rosa Mortlock 3

(A Correction for the surname has been submitted......"Soundy")

Here we go....

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Rose Mortlock Name: Rose Mortlock (Spinster)
Spouse Name: Francis Thomas Oxley Clements (Bachelor) Goods Clerk
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Aug 1871
Parish: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Joseph Mortlock (Butcher)
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Clements (Potato Salesman)

Hi Keith

First of all....looking back at the 1871 census, both Francis (Son) and Rose (Grand Daughter) are both unmarried.

They married later that year....


Marriages Sep 1871 (>99%)

Clements Francis Thomas O St Saviour 1d 112
MORTLOCK Rose St Saviour 1d 112


Now this is where it gets confusing!!

It seems that Sobieski's daughter Caroline, married a Joseph Mortlock...

Marriages Sep 1843 (>99%)

CLEMENTS Caroline Richmond Sur 4 419
MORTLOCK Joseph Richmond S 4 419

I might be going bonkers...but it seems Francis married his Sisters daughter??

I assume the Joseph Mortlock in the 1861 census is Caroline and Joseph's Son.

I will do a bit more digging on this one!

And just to add to the above, I have three other little mysteries.

Someone else, I don't know who, has been following this trail and left some sketchy notes. These include at least one "claimed" additional person in the family: Jane Oxley (presumably Clements, 22 September 1833 - 9 December 1916). Clementina Sobieski (possible surname?) married Thomas Oxley Clements somewhere around 1825. They seem to have had 6-8 children depending on who you listen to! Can anyone help me track them through the censuses, please, and see if we can settle on the right number?

And then, it would appear as if there is a mother and daughter with identical name: Clementina Sobieski (or Sobieska), one of them born about 1799. I think I have merged them into one person and I need some help to separate them. But I'm also not sure whether Sobieska is the family name or whether it is a "middle" name. Can someone please find records for either or both?

Finally, for the moment anyway!, I think Francis Thomas Oxley Clements (abt 1837) married Rose or Rosa Mortlock (abt 1850), possibly 31 August 1871. I'd welcome some evidence of this please. Interestingly another Mortlock seems to have married into the family a generation later: Charles Chapman (abt 1860) married Julia Mortlock of whom I know nothing. Then another young Mortlock (Joseph, abt 1844) crops up as a visitor with Sophie Clements in St Helier Jersey in 1851. So it looks as if I need to research the Mortlock clan!

Any help anyone can offer will be very welcome!

Keith

I've got my head around most of this, I'd welcome your help, please, to tie up a loose end and then maybe to push a bit further back.

I note Joseph Mortlock 15 in the CI 1861 census.

I note Rose Mortlock 21 <<<<<<Grandaughter...Lambeth Surrey in the 1871 England census.

And then there is this:

According to a tree on Ancestry (Although there is nothing to back it up) Father Thomas is.....Thomas Clements Oxley Mortlock born abt 1875 in Nunhead.

I'm having difficulty seeing how that last name could be logically constructed. The birth date puts him in the cohort as a grandson of Clementina. To retain the Mortlock surname he'd have to be the child of a daughter of Clementina, who married a Mortlock. It looks to me as if Caroline is the only available candidate, however I have no evidence that she retained the Oxley Clements names.

Again given the dates, this Thomas must be in the same cohort as Rosa Clementina Mortlock, who is ?? granddaughter? So who were her parents? The same as this Thomas?

Similarly, the Joseph Mortlock would seem to be the same cohort.

Later edit: I have found informal suggestions of a marriage between Charles Chapman (Abt 1860) and Julia Mortlock (no dates).

So Prickles, could please have another look at that Ancestry tree? And / or elsewhere? Can we tie all this together?

Then, to push a little further ...

According to an informal family history, Clementina was part of the Sobieski Stuart family. Her siblings were:
Catherine
Rose
Jane
Jeremiah

Can we find any of them and perhaps confirm / identify the parents?

Keith

Well - Here I is !!!

I have left downstairs in a big mess and given hubby an early dinner!

I have to say though, Prickles has just about found it all - I don't know what else I can do :-D

Suggest you digest all this info Keith and then come back with any questions or requests for further info you might need.

Sorry I couldn't help more today but Prickles has 'done you proud' !!!

Best wishes,

Dea Xxx

This is magic, Prickles, thank you very much. I know my contact will be most interested in as much as there is to know about Sovieski / Sobieski.

Keith

Found another baptism...

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Francis Thomas Oxley Clements Name: Francis Thomas Oxley Clements
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1838
Baptism Date: 24 Jun 1838
Father's Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Salesman)
Mother's name: Sobieski Clements
Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers
Res: Market Street

Born...10th Sep 1837

According to a tree on Ancestry (Although there is nothing to back it up) Father Thomas is.....Thomas Clements Oxley Mortlock born abt 1875 in Nunhead.

So this is interesting....

1871 England Census
about Sovieski Clements Name: Sovieski Clements
Age: 71
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Nk, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Chertsey
Ecclesiastical parish: Addlestone
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Chertsey
Sub-registration district: Chertsey
Household Members: Name Age
Sovieski Clements 71 (Retired Potatoe Dealer)
Francies Clements 33 (Railway Porter)
Rose Mortlock 21 <<<<<<Grandaughter...Lambeth Surrey

??
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Rosa Clementina Mortlock Name: Rosa Clementina Mortlock
Date of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1847
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 247

1841 England Census
about Sobieski Clements Name: Sobieski Clements
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Female
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil parish: St Saviour
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: St Saviour
Sub-registration district: St Saviour
Household Members: Name Age
Sobieski Clements 40 (Saleswoman)
Sobieski Clements 15
Caroline Clements 15
Francis Clements 3



1861 Channel Islands Census
about Sobiskei Clements Name: Sobiskei Clements
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: England


Civil Parish or Township: St Helier
County/Island: Jersey
Country: Channel Islands
Registration district: Anglesey
Sub-registration district: Holyhead
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 149
Piece: 4395
Folio: 60
Page Number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
John Turner 65
Mary Turner 56
William Turner 29
Rebecca Turner 17
Sobiskei Clements 61 (Widow)
Joseph Mortlock 15

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Sobieski Clementina Clements Name: Sobieski Clementina Clements
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1799
Date of registration: Apr-May-Jun 1881
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 253

I don't care how you get here.........just get here if you can!! ;-)

Thank you 'my likkle friend' Prickles for stepping in - You are doing a wonderful job !!!

Having a busy day here but will be back later.

Dea Xxx

This appears to be a Girls School in Siver Street.

Appearing next to Rose on the page is a Georgina and Jane Clements

1841 England Census
about Rose Clements Name: Rose Clements
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Edmonton
Hundred: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton

Georgina Clements 15
Rose Clements 11
Jane Clements 7


I can't see any baptism records for Georgina and Jane.

This appears to be a School for Boys....the Head is a "Schoolmaster"

Appearing with lots of other boys of around the same age is Clement and further dowm the page is his brother Charles...

1841 England Census
about Clement Clements Name: Clement Clements
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Edmonton
Hundred: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton

Clement Clements 11

Charles Clements 5

Address...Bridport House, Silver Street.

She appears to have had a Sister too...

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sobieska Oxley Clements Name: Sobieska Oxley Clements (Spinster)
Spouse Name: Samuel Coleman (Bachelor)
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Nov 1846
Parish: Rotherhithe Christ Church
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Clements (Dead)
Spouse Father Name: Samuel Coleman (Merchant)
Register Type: Parish Register
Residence at time of marriage...Rotherhide.

Another one...

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Charles Oxley Clements Name: Charles Oxley Clements
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1836
Baptism Date: 24 Jul 1836
Father's Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Salesman)
Mother's name: Sobieski Clements
Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Born...16th Nov 1835

A Brother...

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Clement Oxley Clements Name: Clement Oxley Clements
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1832
Baptism Date: 27 May 1832
Father's Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Salesman)
Mother's name: Sobieski Clements
Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Born...31 Jan 1832