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1851 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, David
Address: Cote House, Hamlet Of Aston & Cote In The Parish Of Bampton
TOWNSEND, Robert Head Married M 48 1803 Ag Lab
Aston
Oxon
TOWNSEND, Elizabeth Wife Married F 44 1807 Ag Lab Wife
Aston
Oxon
TOWNSEND, John Son Unmarried M 21 1830 Ag Lab Son
Aston
Oxon
TOWNSEND, David Son Unmarried M 17 1834 Ag Lab Son
Aston
Oxon
TOWNSEND, Harriett Daughter F 12 1839 Scholar
Cote
Oxon
TOWNSEND, Thomas Grand Son M 2 1849 At Home
Cote
Oxon


1871 England Census
about Charles Vine Townsend
Name: Charles Vine Townsend
[Charles Viner Townsend]
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: David
Mother's Name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Thomas
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Household schedule number: 161
Household Members: Name Age
David Townsend 47
Emma Townsend 42
William Townsend 18
Charles Vine Townsend 14
Thomas Townsend 13
Sarah Ann Townsend 11
Emma Townsend


Name: Charles Viner Townsend
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 19 Oct 1856
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT THOMAS,BIRMINGHAM,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 02 Aug 1856
Father's Name: David Townsend
Mother's Name: Emma

Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Siblings
1. SARAH ANN TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 23 OCT 1859 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

2. JOSEPH TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 04 JAN 1863 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

3. EMMA TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 30 JUL 1861 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

4. HARRIETT TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 21 JAN 1866 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

5. GEORGE TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 18 FEB 1855 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

6. HENRY TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JUN 1864 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

7. THOMAS TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 27 DEC 1857 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England

8. CHARLES VINER TOWNSEND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 19 OCT 1856 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England


1881 census -
Address: 14, Court 20 House, Broad St, Birmingham
TOWNSEND, David Head Married M 55 1826 Warehouse Man
Bampton
Oxfordshire
TOWNSEND, Emma Wife Married F 55 1826
Backimton
Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Charles Son Single M 24 1857 Carpenter
Bham
Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Sarah Daughter Single F 21 1860 India Rubber Worker
Bham
Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Emma Daughter Single F 19 1862 Tailoress
Bham
Warwickshire

No marriage found for Alice and Samuel

1901 census
Address: 27, Rodway Street, Birmingham
SMITH, James Head Married M 71 1830 Glass Blower
Birmingham
SMITH, Jane Wife Married F 59 1842
Birmingham
Warwickshire
SMITH, Samuel Son Single M 21 1880 Cycle Worker
Birmingham
Warwickshire
SMITH, David Son Single M 19 1882 Cycle Worker
Birmingham
Warwickshire


1911 census
Address: 93 Sherlock Street Birmingham County: Warwickshire
SMITH, Samuel Head Married
9 years M 32 1879 Finisher Warwickshire Aston
SMITH, Alice May Wife Married
9 years F 28 1883 Warwickshire B Ham

Samuel is a finisher employed in the cycle trade.
Alice May is either 28 but 29 superimposed or vice versa.

Now this is interesting

I listed Charle's siblings earlier.
Thought I would check them out for clues.


1891 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, Thomas
Address: 8 Court 1 House, Inkerman Street, Aston, Aston Manor
TOWNSEND, Thomas Head Married M 33 1858 Brass Work Filer
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Sarah J Wife Married F 31 1860
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Thomas Son M 13 1878 Errand Lad
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Albert Son M 8 1883 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Violet Daughter F 7 1884 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Ellen Daughter F 5 1886 Scholar
Aston
Warwickshire VIEW
TOWNSEND, Elizabeth Daughter F 4 1887
Aston
Warwickshire

1901 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, Thos H
Address: 41, Webster Street, Aston Manor
TOWNSEND, Thos H Head Married M 44 1857 Cycle Run Maker
B'ham Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Sarah Wife Married F 43 1858 B'ham
Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Thos H Son Married M 23 1878 Cycle Run Maker B'ham Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Albert Son Single M 19 1882 Brass Polisher
B'ham Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Voilet Daughter Single F 17 1884 Musical Bronzing B'ham Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Nellie Daughter Single F 16 1885 Warehouse Girl Cycle
Aston Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Geo Son M 9 1892
Aston Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, William Son M 7 1894
Aston
Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Lizzie Daughter F 4 1897
Aston Warwickshire
TOWNSEND, Lily Daughter F 2 1899
Aston Warwickshire

Samuel was in the cycle business.

1911 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, Thomas
Address: 41 Webster St Aston
TOWNSEND, Thomas Head Married M 53 1858 Brass Handler Bham England VIEW
TOWNSEND, William H Son Single M 17 1894 Toole Maker Aston England VIEW
TOWNSEND, Lily Daughter Single F 11 1900 School Aston England

1851 sorry wrong william townsend c1792 bampton oxfordshire
cant find any in 1861.
1871 1881 both right
1891 wrong 1895 emma and david die
1891 wrong 1901 wrong
alice was born 1882 as above
sams parents mark and hannah yes sam is a cycle finisher.born1870

I have taken out the John Derry one as it was wrong.

1851 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, David
Address: Cote House, Hamlet Of Aston & Cote In The Parish Of Bampton
TOWNSEND, David Son Unmarried M 17 1834 Ag Lab Son
Aston
Oxon

1881 census -
Address: 14, Court 20 House, Broad St, Birmingham
TOWNSEND, David Head Married M 55 1826 Warehouse Man
Bampton
Oxfordshire


Apart from the slight difference in age why do you think these are not the same person?

I have posted a few census reports for different people so answers need to be a little clearer.than

1851 sorry wrong william townsend c1792 bampton oxfordshire
cant find any in 1861.
1871 1881 both right
1891 wrong 1895 emma and david die
1891 wrong 1901 wrong
alice was born 1882 as above
sams parents mark and hannah yes sam is a cycle finisher.born1870

its been a long time since i did this part but i think it was davids marriage cert , it states william father
and charles viner townsends strange 2nd name
will this help us find ruth in 1911?

Re Alice (I assume)" "birth 1882 marriaged1902 to sam smith"

I asked for the details and you don't seem to want to give them. DO you have the marriage certificate? even the GRO reference from the index? Why can I not find this marriage???

You say "Sam". Is his name Samuel? If so, it's no help to say "Sam". Where did they marry? What are the regsitration details?? What is her father's name?

Do you have her birth details or not? Parents' names, registration details ...

If you don't have a birth certificate for her, investigating someone who might or might not be her father is pointless.

IS she this one?? --

Births Jun 1882
Townsend Alice May Birmingham 6d 47

And if so, what does that birth certificate say???

The only Alice Townsend that age-ish in Birmingham in the censuses 1891 1901 is the one with parents Henry and Sarah.

Alice's mother was Emily Townsend. What was her name before the marriage to Charles? There was a marriage to Charles Townsend? When, where? Did she remarry and that's why we can't find Alice in 1891 and 1901?


LadyKira: TOWNSEND, Alice Granddaughter F 1 1890

Couldn't really have married in 1902.



Re Ruth: "2/9/1905 she marrided william lewis27/7 1927 as ruth mary theresa"

But what was her name registered as AT BIRTH?? At least we have the other details: father Samuel Smith, mother Alice May formerly Townsend.


This is plain ridiculous, really.

Could you not just answer the easy questions, Zena?

Do you have a birth certificate for Alice May Townsend?
What does it say?

Do you have a marriage certificate for Smith + Townsend?
What does it say?

Do you have a birth certificate for Ruth Smith?
What is her name?

In each case, *everything* it says -- full names, dates, places, parents' / fathers' names.

I am not remotely convinced, while awaiting evidence to the contrary, that this is not the household in 1901:

Henry Lownsend 56 - it says Townsend, of course
Emily Lownsend 61
Alice M Lownsend 19
Charles Lownsend 17

Marriages Sep 1866
SMITH Emily Birmingham 6d 116
Townsend Henry D Birmingham 6d 116

the other one being

Herney Townsend 49
Sarah A Townsend 56
Ann Townsend 24
Alice M Townsend 20
Janes Townsend 17


There were only two Alice M Townsends born in Birmingham around that time, and those are them.

I don't even know how we *know* that Alice's mother was Emily, let alone that her father was Charles Townsend.


This is that family in 1871 for my future ref:

Henry D Touvsend 28
Emily Touvsend 31
Henry Touvsend 3
Emily Touvsend 1

and 1881:

Henry D. Townsend 36
Emily Townsend 41
Henry Townsend 13
Emily Townsend 11
Walter E. Townsend 5



If we could just have the information about the 1902 MARRIAGE of Samuel Smith and Alice May Townsend -- all the details, including her father's name .........

NSW death record


19145/1937
TOWNSEND CHARLES VINER
father DAVID
mother EMMA
district FIVE DOCK


One other Townsend death with those parents in NSW:

8723/1948
TOWNSEND THOMAS
DAVID
EMMA
GOSFORD


A birth with father Charles V Townsend

18340/1894
TOWNSEND GEORGE V
CHARLES V
MARY
LEICHHARDT

His death

2020/1948
TOWNSEND GEORGE VINER
CHARLES
MARY
AUBURN

deaths of two other children:

26028/1967
TOWNSEND THOMAS
CHARLES VINER
MARY
ST LEONARDS

19898/1969
TOWNSEND WILLIAM
CHARLES VINER
MARY
BURWOOD


So

Marriages Dec 1850
Harding Emma Meriden 16 709
Townsend David Meriden 16 709

1871
Name: Charles Vine Townsend
[Charles Viner Townsend]
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: David
Mother's Name: Emma
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
also in household:
Thomas Townsend 13


Just to summarize.


*Question*

Australian death certificates list children's names.
You have Charles Viner Townsend's death certificate.

Does it show Alice May's name?

I would not be surprised if it didn't, even if she was his child, but we need to know either way.

think id better start again
marriage cert david townsend emma harding 1850 berkswell warwickshire father william townsend labourer

birth cert charles viner 1856 st thomas birmingham father david mother emma formally harding

marriage cert charles viner emily hodson kings norton edgbaston 1881 fathers david t and william hodson

birth cert alice may 1882 ladywood birmingham father charles mother emily formally hodson
ithink charles went to australia sometime in 81 82 met up with mary fraser and had the family you found

i also think that emily married again marriage cert emily hodson phillipdawson1886 aston both fathers called william

birth cert samuel smith father mark mother hannah late wakeman formally etchells

marriage cert may townsend samuel smith 1902 st marks birmingham fathers charles t and mark smith

birth cert ruth smith feb 1905 all saints birmingham father samuel smith mother alice may smith formally townsend

marriage cert ruth mary theresa smith william lewis birmingham north 1927 fathers samuel smith and edwin wallace lewis


alice may was called
in the family may and ruth found the catholic church hence the mary theresa on her marriage cert
sorry for all my mistakes hope this is ok
oh i also have death certificates for david, emma, charles(Australian and export versions alice may mentioned on australion version),alice may,samuel, ruth, william. regards zena

So it was this marriage I'd looked at -- putting it here just for the record!

Marriages Jun 1881
> HODSON Emily King's N. 6c 606
HORTON Sarah King's N. 6c 606
> TOWNSEND Charles King's N. 6c 606
TURNER William Henry King's N. 6c 606

And she is *this* Alice May:

Births Jun 1882
Townsend Alice May Birmingham 6d 47


And I still can't find:

"marriage cert may townsend samuel smith 1902"

It just is not in the GRO index. Under either name.

And that's because ... I'd looked in 1903 in case it was in late 1902 and registered in 1902 ...it was in 1901.

Marriages Jun 1901
Hawthorn Frederick Birmingham 6d 170
> SMITH Samuel Birmingham 6d 170
TAYLOR Harriett Esther Birmingham 6d 170
> TOWNSEND May Birmingham 6d 170

Phew.

Now we still can't find Alice/May in 1891 ...


But she is on Charles Viner Townsend's Australian death certificate. Yay!!


It sure does help to have the actual info from the various records. ;)

Emily Hodson in 1881

Name: Emily Hodson
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Martha A.
Where born: Stratford On Avon
Occupation: Fancy Leather Worker

Civil parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street Address: 1 Marlborough Place
Registration district: Birmingham

William Hodson 56
Martha A. Hodson 47
Emily Hodson 21
Catherine Hodson 19
Susan Hodson 17
Isaiah M. Hodson 11
Frederick Hodson 7
Albert E. Hodson 4
Charles Hodson 13


Marriages Mar 1886
Dawson Phillip Aston 6d 281
Day Sarah Elizabeth Aston 6d 281
> HODSON Emily Aston 6d 281
Righton Harry Aston 6d 281
(Righton married Day; they're in Aston in 1891)


She would ordinarily have married as Townsend, but if she were concealing her first marriage she would likely have used her birth surname.

That marriage certificate would be needed, for her details -- I'm not finding her or Philip or Alice/May in the 1891.

1891??

Name: Alice M Dawson
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Fredrick
Mother's Name: Emma
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Registration district: Aston

Fredrick Dawson 33
Emma Dawson 31 - born Stratford on Avon
Alice M Dawson 8

sorry had flat battery on car had RAC here
i couldnt find them in 91 either but they are at 9 frankfort street birmingham 1n 1901
phillip dawson 43 1858 birmingham
emma dawson 37 1864 stratford on avon
florence and philip john and harold(harold died in 1st ww my dad was taken to see his name in the hall of memory when he was a kid). emma seems to swopto emily sometimes
only have photo copy of sam and alice may marriage cert so it could be smugged. and have got emily/emma to philip dawson cert

Good old Ancestry.

1891 - edit - 1901, not 1891

Name: Emma Danson
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Phillip
Gender: Female
Where born: Stratford On Avon, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham

Phillip Danson 43
Emma Danson 37
Florence Danson 9
Phillip John Danson 7
Harold Danson 5



Do you subscribe to Ancestry? If so you should correct the various name misspellings -- I think I mentioned this. If you don't, let us know and one of us will do it. That way it will be easier for anyone to find them in the censuses.

so you dont think its not the frederick one then ?

janey is that the 1891 or the 1901 as they seem to be the ages i have on the 1901? i have checked the 1911 as well and they match also which means you have found alice in 1891 with another mis spell frederick instead of phillip but i still have to find ruth 1911 thanks zena

Duh, edited the year, yes it's 1901. But the image definitely says Fredrick, I checked.

He's a carpenter -- does that fit? Well, in 1901 he's a bricklayer's labourer. Could fit -- I think if he'd been skilled, he would have been a "joiner" rather than a carpenter, as I understand the terms.

The only birth is Phillip, no middle name.

But that really does have to be them in 1891.



I know -- no Ruth yet in 1911, and no deceased child ...

What about Alice/May in 1901 -- I can't find her.

another sorry from me on the marriage cert it says telegraph man
on the 1881 it says carpenter 91 carpenter1901 bricklayers laboured and on 1911 ladder maker i think they must be the same person.
i sent for the birth cert of the stratford on avon emma but wasnt sure it was right but this all seems to prove its her
father william mother martha formally foster
P.S i have genes, find my past and ancestry