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Hi Vanessa & Christine
That's why I got excited when I saw a William Clarke living at an address next door to where Ellen Babangton lived in Watville Rd, my over active imagination went off at a tangent, thinking that if Thomas was his dad he was living with him, maybe because there wasn't room at her place.
I understand what you're saying about 1904 and where was he in 1911, I also think that the 1913 one sounds better (very scientific!). A lot of people appear to have married quite young in those days, so that would have made him 23 when he married rather than 32 and 31 instead of 40 when his last child was born. We'll just have to wait and see what the cert says.
Thanks for the info about current electoral rolls, I'll have a go at that.
The only facts I really know about Ellen are that she was on Rosie's birth certificate (1900) as Ellen Babbington formerly Clarke, on Lilian's (1903) as Ellen Clarke late Babington formerly Kirby and on dad's (1910) as Ellen Babington formerly Clarke, I don't have one for Auntie Nellie (Ellen Jane) but she was born so close to Rosie that I should think her mother would be the same person. So far I don't have a birth record for William although Lilian's granddaughters mum says that there wasn't much of an age gap between them. Everything else i.e. her parents I've taken from other peoples trees.
If this 1904 birth certificate isn't William I will send for a copy of the marriage certificate.
I'm not one to give up, just have to approach it from a different angle.
Many thanks ladies
Anthony

Hi Anthony,

I also still keep checking the thread.

I hope the William cLarke 1904 is the correct one but as Vanessa said, where is he in 1911?

That was the reason I suggested getting his marriage cert to find his age.

I know getting certs is expensive but to find the correct details it's very important, even more so with such common names.

You will probably need the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth cert to be able to find any definite details about her, not a cheap hobby is it?

Christine

Hi Anthony , don't despair. I have at least two brick walls in my own research which I just keep plugging away at . Sometimes it is luck , sometimes it's sheer hard work but something will fall into place.

If between you and lilian's grandaughter you can sort out what is fact and what is a good hunch then see where it leaves you. There were many many people who unfortunately didn't give the correct info . Your Ellen snr is a different year of birth on the two census you know are her.

I will have another look for John Clarke . It may be the correct name , if you get the same name on the William cert then it probably is. Where was William in 1911 though if 1904 birth correct ?

With the Thomas Clarke army info try to have a look . it might just give you a clue.

Hanging on with you !!

best wishes

Vanessa


ps have you tried tracing William Clarke's three children ? It is likely they would still be alive. There is a lady on here who offers current electoral roll look ups . put electoral roll in search box and hopefully you will find her.

Hi Vanessa
I'm feeling a little disappointed at the moment so thanks for keeping in touch.
I was really pleased when the birth for Ellen Kirby Clarke turned up but after her birth in 1875 she disappears, I've spent part of today trawling through thousands of Ellen Clarkes that came up as possibles on 1881 census when I put in her Ellen Kirby Clarke details but, I drew a blank.
Astra has emailed the army info, there's a lot of it so I haven't attempted to go through it yet. I had started to think as Thomas was a young man and he and Ellen 'Babangton' were close neighbours, perhaps he could have been my Williams father, fogetting in my desperation to find an answer that on Lilian Clarke's birth certificate her father was a John Clarke, so if William is the one born Aston 1904 it's likely he will have the same father. Lilian's granddaughter has sent for William 1904 birth certificate so we should know the answer to that soon.
I'm sure that the Thomas and William at 1 & 4 Bk Wattville Rd will be significant, I just haven't worked out how yet, they're living too close not to be.
I have sent for the marriage certificate for Ellen Clarke 1905 West Bromwich, which seemed a good idea at the time but having trawled through all that many Ellen Clarke's I think I'll find she isn't my Ellen.
I'm keeping in close contact with Lilian's granddaughter, it's good having someone share the load when things aren't progressing.
Thanks for the suggestion re compiling all I know, good idea.
Thanks for being there
Anthony

Hi anthony, shame about the australian tree but I think you need to not lose sight of what you have learnt about your family.

Have you contacted Astra for the army info on Thomas Clarke ?

As someone suggested previously It may be an idea to invest in a couple of certs. William Calrke's marriage should give you father's details and a correct age.

If you are fairly convinced between your own instincts/ knowledge and Lilian's grandaughter info that the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth is yours then that would be another possible.

I'm afraid sometimes I have spent hours and hours going round in circles when in fact a cert then made the whole search much faster.

I will keep chipping in. If you haven't done so already why don't you compile everything you know and when it happened. It might be that you are missing something obvious.

Best wishes

Vanessa

Lady in Australia doesn't think our Ellen is her Ellen as all her parent and sibling info came from censuses, the dates are different, so back to the drawing board.

When Ellen Kirby Clarke was found I was really excited but I can't find anything usefulabout her, I'll keep searching....

I have had contact from a lady living in Australia who says that her husband is decended from Ellen Kirby's half sister Jane, so here goes: -

Ellen Kirby's parents - possibly Sampson Kirby (1832 - 1878) and Caroline Jones (1845 - )
Ellen Kirby's siblings: -
Robert Sampson Kirby (1868 - ) after his dad obviously
Rose Kirby (1869 - ) could be where Rose May got her name from
Thomas Jones Kirby (1870 - ) I knew that I'd seen someone during my research with a middle name that looked like a surname. I wonder if the parents made a habit of doing this hence Ellen Kirby Clarke although it still doesn't answer where the Clarke name came from
Half siblings: -
Charles Kirby (1854 - )
Jane Kirby (1855 -1919) this is the one my contact's husband is decended from hence the full life dates
Elizabeth kirby (1861 - )
Henry Kirby (1862 - )

I have asked how sure she is of all these or whether she's guessed some of them are hers from other website trees

Hi Anthony, hope you have spotted the fab info on Thomas Clarke Astra found. It may well add to the emerging story.

Glad too that it looks like the Ellen Kirby Clarke birth may well be her.

I seem to recall one of the Ellen ( something ) families i found had a Caroline as Head of the family. Fingers crossed with a bit more digging you will get there.

I am still undecided if Thomas Clarke is now her brother / cousin / husband / lover. The fact that he is at 131 wattville st in 1911 with parents and 73 Wattville when he signs up for army and back at 73 after war by 1920 then he and Ellen have to be connected.

Will pick this up later.

bw

Vanessa

This is extract from email from Lilian's granddaughter: -

"mom said to me a long time ago that they called her nan ellen kirby clarke and always joked she was the posh
part of the family as she had a double barrelled name. As my nan lilian was born a clarke I thought mom meant that ellen started as a kirby, then married a clarke and the double barrelled bit was just a joke, I had already quieried it with mom as I pointed out if she was a kirby then married a babbington then married a clarke - she couldnt be kirby clarke...however - you have cracked the case! :) she started life
AS ellen kirby clarke! That would be why she is listed as formerly clarke on rosie may's birth certificate because that WAS her maiden name -kirby being her middle name! On lilian clarkes certificate they have listed her as ellen clarke late babbington formerly kirby - they have taken the kirby as her maiden name instead of the clarke, its strange she started as a clarke then ended as a clarke, perhaps she married a cousin or
something or it may just be coincidence, there does seem to have been a lot of clarkes around. The reason I have not picked this up before is because I have been researching the name kirby when I should have been looking at the name clarke, I have her dad down as sampson kirby at the moment but I guess that would probably be wrong now but, I am so chuffed there is daylight at the end of the tunnell I dont care!

I have asked her how Ellen could have started life as a Clarke if her father was a Kirby. She also has Caroline Jones as Ellen's mother, I seem to recollect seeing something on a census about one of the sons being called Thomas Jones Kirby, maybe the mothers had allusions of grandeur.

Hi Anthony, big stepforward thanks to Astra. His records will make interesting reading

If you search Thomas Clarke 1880 - Handsworth -- as keyword-- you will find him with his family right back to 1881.

In 1911 they appear to be the family at 131 wattville st and previously they lived at 121 so they move up and down Wattville st !!

Just about to check elec roll for any other bits.

bw
vanessa

Hi Anthony,

Pleased you have received the image.

I realise the expense of the certificates but as you mentioned your contact getting the birth cert I thought it would be better to get his correct age from the marriage cert.

It's so difficult with such a common name isn't it?

Christine

Military record.

He gives his next of kin as William Clarke father of the same address. If you want a copy just PM me your e mail address and I will send it. There's isn't much of it but it's well worth having.

Thomas Clarke>>>>single bricklayer
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Age at Enlistment: 34
Residence: 73 Wattville Rd, Handsworth Birmingham Thas
Document Year: 1914
Regimental Number: 53474
Regiment Name: Royal Garrison Artillery
Number of Images: 9

Hi Anthony, I am not hugely experienced myself. I was hoping that somewhere along the line we would find a Clarke family that made sense for you. Possibly on earlier census etc. One of your biggest issues is how common names like William Clarke or even Ellen are.

We have also been struggling with any definites regarding Ellen, such as her absolutely correct name . If she was Ellen Kirby then we could scour the census 1881/ 91 for her with her family.

regarding Thomas Clarke and his army career there are definitely places you can find out lots about the person. Problem is I don't know how and where. I have however seen in other threads people giving others lots of info they somehow have access to. Why don't you put a general query on one of the other boards. You don't have to be specific , just ask how you can get hold of someone's army records. If they offer to help direct them to this thread and take it from there.

34 white road smethwick did not appear to be covered by the birmingham elec roll. The two White roads that appear are in Sparkbrook and ?? can't remember now but I did post it sometime last week on here.

If I was going to apply a theory then my best shot would be Ellen marries John B . They have two children in Sheffield. He dies. Ellen returns to Brum. Now either she marries a Clarke or was always a Clarke. If that is the case then the William/Thomas Clarkes we find are either family or husbands. This then begs the question why Babington on 1911 census and your dad's birth cert ?? Telling you here what you already know !!
She would appear though to keep the name Clarke and my hunch is that was always her name. If she had married a Clarke why would she use Babington in 1911 and say she was a widow ?

I am going to look at earlier census and see what I can pick up.

bw
Vanessa

Hi Vanessa
Being very new to all this I didn't know that there was a special register for those absent from home. The family story goes that both my granddads were killed during WWI, I found my mum's dad really easily. Do you think you could look at this special register for a John Babington or Babbington or even an Ernest Babington just in case Ellen was involved with more than one.
How can I make use of the information you have found for Thomas Clarke? Because he might have been the one living at 1 Bk 73 Wattville Road in 1920 with a William Clarke I was rather hoping he might have been my Williams dad
Did you ever find anyone of interest at the 34 White Road address, where dad got married from in 1933?
Many thanks

Hi Anthony , just found all the recent additions. At least now you are beginning to put a few more details in place.

I will search the electoral roll for the Catherine st address just on the off chance. I will also post Thomas Clarke' s army reference as he is at war in 1918 and there was a special register produced for those absent from home.

Back asap

vanessa

edit--

Thomas Clarke 1918 --53474, Gnr,115 Hvy Bty, RGA

William and Muriel Clarke remain at 4 bk 19 Alfred st until 1955 where the roll stops on the site that I use.

Hi
I've spent the afternoon looking through possible marriages for Ellen Kirby Clarke and Ellen Clarke from 1890 to 1920, absolutely nothing.
I also looked for Thomas Clarke and William Clarke in Birmingham on the 1911 census checking each of the addresses hoping one of them might be familiar but again no joy
Keep going.......

Hi Christine
Thank you I have the 1911 image, very useful although I'm not sure with my fading eyesight I'd be able to make out what it said about lily's age if you hadn't pointed it out.
How old would the voting age have been then, do you know?
The marriage you found for William Clarke was definitely the right one, I suppose the only way to find his age is to send for the marriage certificate. If I sent for every certificate I know it would be much easier to do this search but I am trying to keep the costs down where possible
thanks again

Hi Anthony,

You had to be of voting age to be on the electoral roll.

I emailed the 1911 image, hope you've received it.

Christine

Hi Vanessa
How old would William have had to have beeen to appear on the Electoral roll in 1920. Excuse my ignorance, I'm thinking that if he is the William born 1913 he would only have been 7 and I don't think children appeared then or now
Thanks very much

Hi Vanessa
I got really excited when I saw the name Ellen Kirby Clarke, I've found the birth ok but there's no marriage for an Ellen Kirby Clarke, Ellen Clarke or Ellen Kirby between 1890 and 1920.
As she is supposed to have died a Clarke in 1936/7 I doubt if she was ever married to anyone, what did you say about modesty? Doesn't sound like she had much!
Lilian's granddaughter now tells me that she has no proof of the marriage to John H (Howard) Clarke and the date of 1902 just fitted nicely between the birth of Rosie May in 1900 and her nan (Lilian) in 1903. She has decided to take him off her tree after I pointed out that the date of birth and death she had for him on her tree would have made him 56 when he died but the record she had as proof said he was 44.