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Hi Vanessa.
You are quite right, I have been living in Spain for 5 years so researching in Brum is pretty much out of the question.
When I was living there I took a 2 year Certificate of Higher Education in Family History, run by Birmingham University but held at Central Library,so used the Local History & Archives sections virtually every week.
The staff are very friendly & helpful,especially in the Archives although you do need a readers card to use the facilities. They are issued on the spot, but you need some form of ID which includes both your name & address, such as a recent utility bill.
Problem with the Clarke/ Hughes lot is that they kept repeating christian names down the generations.
Muriel Hughes 1 who was daughter of Elijah & Flora Sewell was my grandmother´s niece.
She married William Clarke & had a daughter called Muriel.
Flora & Elijah also had a son called Stanley, after who my father was named, and as I now know, so was Stanley Clarke.
Hope that sheds a bit of light.
If the family are so confused by it all, can´t imagine how you are keeping tabs on it.
You deserve a medal for perseverence.
Marion

Hi Anthony, it got too late last night to carry on searching. My tiredness probably also accounts for my inability to express myself clearly enough over the Robert Clarke link to Muriel Hughes.

Marion , I can see from the depth of research you have obviously undertaken on the Sewells / Hughes / Clarkes etc you clearly know your stuff and I was not doubting the connection . I simply couldn't get my head around what exactly the relationship would be if Muriel Hughes had an uncle ( by marriage ?) who was a Clarke and then how he may relate to Ellen Clarke who I knew was the mother of William Clarke who married Muriel.

Anthony, If I get a chance later I will have a look at things generally, not that I will necessarily find anything you don't already have !!

The other thing that I can also offer is a trip to Central library in Birmingham for you if anything is outstanding in the next couple of weeks. I keep meaning to go and it may speed things up if I get a chance .

Marion, I take it you are no longer Birmingham based , is it relatively straight forward to search at the library? I think you made a comment on a thread that you had been there. ( I also added to your thread on an Aunt Amelia who you were tracing and came up with " Milly Shaw" with your Sewell Relative ??)

Sorry to hijack your thread Anthony

All best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa.
Please excuse me for butting in, but I think the feeling is that Ellen Clarke was mother of William Clarke who married Muriel Hughes.
William was father of Stan Clarke who is also looking for her.
Marion

Good Morning Vanessa
Thanks you so much for your continued support, there hasn't really been any definite info lately for anyone to get to grips with. You're right, with a name like Clark it is difficult to make links without proof.

The despatch date for William Clarke's birth cert is 6 October but, I'm afraid due to a bit of confusion the one for John Thomas M Babington is 25 Oct, whereas I thought Ellen Kirby Clarkes death cert had been ordered it hasn't so that will probably be even longer.

At least without any new evidence it is giving me time to do a lot of tidying up around both trees, the one on Ancestry is much bigger, I seem to find working on there much easier for instance when you do a bmd search for someone already on the tree you only need to input the first name and the system completes all the relevent info. Also the access to many public member trees gives you the opportunity to double check your theories with other people, the same families keep cropping up when I do that so I'm obviously on the right track.

But I won't be giving up GR as yet, I've had so much help from people like yourself on here.

Hi Anthony I have finally managed to re read the whole thread and tried to put some things down in order to help me get my head around the progress you have made and what has so far been sorted with certs etc.

The theory about Ellen having 3 children at 15 /16 /17 is not one I can instantly disprove but she is living with her brothers and sisters in 1891 - noted on one of your earlier pages- so unless she was pregnant at the time ?? Those births would have to be found and investigated to prove this.

Just for reference Robert and Elizabeth Clarke of Alfred Road stay at that address for many years and have two sons with them- Robert jnr and Dennis. Again with such a common surname we are struggling to make definite links. I can see the connections explained by Marion to Muriel / William Clarke but who are we suggesting is connected to Ellen ? Unless I am mistaken Ellen would have been the same generation as Robert snr ? Is the idea he may have had a brother who Ellen became involved with ? If so wouldn't that make Muriel / william sort of cousins ?? I think I am definitely barking up the wrong tree here.!!


Having looked at the little pockets of Clarkes we have found in and around the census and on the elec roll I think I might have been over optimistic in connecting them to Ellen in some way. Some of it is probably simply down to the common nature of the surname.

I hope I am not coming across as too negative .I can sense that you are really enjoying the searching Anthony and that is half the fun. I do want to help and much like everyone else following your thread I would love to find the key piece of info that helps lots of other things drop into place.

So I am going to have a look around and see what comes up.

Hope the certs arrive soon

Best wishes

vanessa

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Hi Vanessa
Glad you're still with us, we understand that work will take up a lot of your time, this retirement thing is great but it is amazing how much of your time is taken up and you can't really explain where it went. Of course the family tree has taken up far more time than I ever expected it to as we're still trying to keep 2 trees going.

Yes, if the Ellen Marion has found is our Ellen Kirby Clarke then she would have been 15 and I suppose it is quite likely that she could have had 3 children so young but, that means over her lifetime she would have had 8 children, my goodness! Although during this research some my 'family' do seem to have a huge amount of children, something to do with having no tv perhaps?

From our research Ellen did spend some time in Sheffield although I don't know if she had family there or just moved there to be away from Birmingham and John's wife. John's occupation at one time was a file grinder so the theory is that he found work there when he left Elizabeth to be with Ellen.

I googled Ecclesall Bierlow recently and found some interesting sites including one which gave details of the 1881 census, it was interesting to see that there were no Babington's living there at that time, so none of John's family for he & Ellen to run to.

I'm going to check out Marion's info in more detail today, will keep you informed.

Hi Vanessa.
Sorry, the confusion over Thomas/John is my fault. I did mean John Babbington who was married to Elizabeth, but had the John Thomas who died on my brain.
Again, apologies.
Yes, Ellen would only have been 15, but she told so many lies that anything is possible, particularly if she was pregnant,which I suspect she was.
Arthur Carrington would only have been 19. Can´t even be sure that the Arthur Carrington I found on the 91 census in the Army is the same chap, although he was born Birmingham.
Still have a feeling that Ellen & John Babbington never married.
I just sent my findings to Tony so that he could check them out in more depth & either prove or disprove them.
Again, sorry for confusing the issue even further.
Marion

Hi Anthony, Vanessa here. Sorry I haven't been chipping in but work and various other things have limited my time. I have been following the thread but think I have lost my way with it a bit so please excuse my confusion if I get things wrong.

With the info that Marion found wouldn't your Ellen have been 15 in 1890 ? Is it likely/ possible that she had 3 children with this Arthur at such a young age ?

Is the "Thomas" referred to the person we have previously called John Babbington ? If not I have completely lost that plot.

Other theories seem to have Ellen moving back and forth to Sheffield and marrying Babbingtons and Clarkes in rotation. Probably because I haven't re read every entry I am on the wrong track here but is this really likely?

If there are any of these people you have unearthed I can look for on the electoral roll I will happily do so.

Best wishes

Vanessa

A couple of setbacks this week, the birth cert for William Clark was ordered with the district given as Birmingham instead of West Bromwich and registration quarter as Sept instead of Dec, an easy mistake to make as the person who ordered it knew William was born in Sept and lived mainly in Birmingham. It's been re-ordered and despatch date is 6 Oct, so not too long to wait.

The other was John Babington's death cert request came back as 'nothing found' and no charge, it has now been ordered with the full details from the death record we found so hopefully will produce a result this time.

Look what Marion has found: -

I get more confused with this lot, the more I look at them.
Have found a marriage for Ellen Clarke 2nd quarter 1890 Birmingham. On the same page is marriage for Arthur Thomas Carrington who was brother of Thomas Babbington´s 1st wife Elizabeth (Caroline Eliza). On the 91 census, Arthur is a private in the army based in Hampshire. Can´t find Ellen, but in 1901 there are 3 Carrington children, Arthur,May & Henry in a children´s home in Coleshill, all born between 1890-1894.
I´m thinking, did Ellen marry Arthur, have 3 kids with him then go off with his brother in law Thomas Babbington while Arthur was away in the Army? If so, it probably means that Ellen & Thomas never married.
More food for thought.
Marion

Haven't checked this out yet, just thought I'd share it with everyone else. Any comments?

Well I did say it could be a complete red herring but from earlier research it would seem that Ellen´s family had a connection with Sheffield through her mother. I realise that she came back to Birmingham, but she could well have known her Clarke spouse for years. Maybe he was married to somebody else & wasn´t free to marry her. Not that many people seem to have worried about minor inconveniences like an existing spouse.
This family is such a web of inconsistencies that it doesn´t pay to leave any stone unturned.
Hopefully the death cert will provide a few more clues, but they give very little info about the deceased.
Marion

A look at the 1911 census shows that there were 5 Nellie Clarkes living in Ecclesall Bierlow only one born 1889 of marriagable age as the others were younger. There were 22 George Clarkes one age 23, two age 24, and one age 37, the last one would have been the most likely as Ellen b 1875 would have been 36 by then. I'm almost certain that the Ellen we have is the right one, just waiting for her death cert to confirm this.

My immediate thought on reading this is that Ellen had already left Sheffield by 1911 and was on the census as Ellen Babangton with all the children except William (yet to be born). Our thought were that she came back to her roots after John Babington/Babbington died in 1901 but, until we receive the death cert for him we can't be sure he is the right John

Thank you very much for finding it and I will try to investigate it further.

Also William Clarke's (1913 - 1995) living son is sure that his older brother was named William John Clarke (1937 - 2003) after his grandad

Clutching at straws a bit here Tony, but have found a marriage for Nellie Clarke & George Clarke 4th quarter 1913 Eccleshall Bierlow (Sheffield).
Probably a complete red herring, but if it is your Nellie it would indicate that she was never married to John babbington & that William Clarke b 1913 was probably George´s son born before the marriage ,which is why he was a Clarke & not a Babbington
Marion

Walter Ernest Babington born 1877 Aston Birmingham could be a contender as my granddad, can see him on census in 1881, 1891, 1901. Unfortunately he's married to Jane and they have children but who knows...... Looks like he dies in 1915 WW1. Will have to look closer.

Good Morning Marion
Yes, I'd noticed the surname being spilled Kerby on more than one occassion, thanks for the info about Ellen age 12. There's so many of this Kirby family I'm having to be quite careful I don't pick up wrong ones, I think I'll have to go back and re-check some of them.

Had a look at your Tom Kirby in 1871. Says he was born London.
Had you noticed (I,m sure you had) that in 1851 the surname is spelled Kerby.
In 1861 there´s an Ellen Kerby aged 12 working as a servant in Birmingham. Havn´t found any other family members yet.
Marion

Hi Tony.
Sounds complicated I know, but maybe Caroline Kirby died, William re married to Ann? then he died & she re married Millward.
It´s happened several times in my tree.
Marion

Thanks for all this, the emunerators back then had a lot to answer for, didn't they ever check things if they weren't sure?
I 've been adding a lot to the Kirby's on our Ancestry tree, censuses etc which I find much easier to do on there. I'm puzzling over 1881 census for Thomas (Tom) Kirby b 1847, there's an Ann Millward age 66 listed as his mother, how can this be? On 1851 census he's age 5 with mum and dad William Kirby and Caroline (Beckett)