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Thanks Christine
I'd virtually reached the same conclusion myself, William & dad were very close, they worked at the same place and belonged to the same fishing club, so if they were only 3 years apart in age it would make a lot more sense. I still haven't managed to prove conclusively that John Thomas M Babbington is the correct one, I'm still working on that. I keep coming back to the family story that grandad Babington was killed in WW1 the same as my granddad Atkiss

Thank Jan for offering to ask your Sandwell contact to look at 34 White Rd in 1933, maybe it will be a dead end but I thought that dad might have been staying with a relative, maybe William as they were close and he was one of dad's witnesses or am I being too optomistic

Hi Dea
You're right, knowing who the people were at No 73 Watville Rd doesn't help but, thanks for finding them for me

Hi Rose
On 1st August you asked a few questions about William, I still don't know when & where he was born but today ChristineinPortugal has added to the thread his marriage in 1936 whick took place in Birmingham. You ask when and where the children were born, she also sent a pm re this, all born Birmingham Warwickshire between 1937 - 1944. I still don't know when & where he died.

Anthony, you need to be very careful with other peoples trees.

Their info is obviously wrong as you have proof with a birth cert.

The Ernest Babington born in 1893 was born in Cheshire, he is on the 1901 census with his widowed mother Ellen, granmother Jane Cheetham and other children.

His parents were Frederick Babington and Ellen Cheetham I think.

As we haven't found William Clarke with Ellen on the census I wonder if he was born after your father.

Births Dec 1913 (>99%)
CLARKE WILLIAM CLARKE W.bromwich 6b 1507

If the death for John in Sheffield is the correct John then obviously he isn't the father of either Lilian or your father.

I really think you need that death cert, hopefully the informant's details will help in your search.

Christine

Hi Vanessa
Re last nights request (don't you sleep?):-
1. Where am I looking to put Williams name in and Handsworth as a location?
2. I'm not sure where you want me to start here - I'm sure my dad's name was Ernest Babington when he was born 1910 West Bromwich as I have his birth certificate. I thought his dad was Ernest Babington and his mum was Ellen Babington formerley Clarke because it said so on his birth certificate. It is now possible that his dad's name was John Babbington because I haven't been able to find a suitable Ernest and dad's marriage certificate (1933) said his dad was John, Rosie May's birth (1900) and marriage (1923) certificates also say her dad's name was John Babbington. I suppose it's possible that Ernest was his biological dad, then somehow a John got involved and was recorded as his father on his marriage certificate.
I thought Ellen, Rose May and Lilian were blood sisters I called them Aunties when I was a child and they, together with William, were all part of the 'family' for Christmas etc. When I was a child Ellen lived in Alfred Street, Handsworth (near William), Rose May was living in Union Street Smethwick with her husband (surname Owen) and children and Lilian was living off Windmill Lane, Smethwick around the same time.
I know that Ellen (Auntie Nellie) never married and when she had a son Philip Babbington my older brother told me she and dad argued about this.
3. I had been looking for Lilian as a Babbington without sucess until someone found a Clarke marriage to Charles Cartwright and births of all her children with the mothers maiden name Clarke, I recognised the names of my cousins.
4. William Clarke was known to me as Uncle Bill and I thought he was the older halfbrother of the 3 sisters and my dad because dad's mum was recorded as 'formerly Clarke'. I can remember dad and he being very close and dad telling me that Bill was his halfbrother. He is named as a witness on dad's marriage certificate together with 'Nellie Jane Babbington' (Ellen Jnr)
5. I haven't seen the actual census return for specifically Ellen Babington 1911, only the enumerators return (Babangton) on GR. I didn't know there were any other sites where I could look at the 1911 census. On the sepia coloured page Ellen is a widow and there isn't a section saying 'how long married' and 'how many children'
Hope this helps if there's anything else you need please do ask

Hi Christine
Well, you clever girl you! Well done I think the William Clarke/Muriel Hughes marriage is almost definitely the one and looking at the childrens births on the pm you sent the names and dates are perfect, although I didn't know about Margaret, maybe she's not one of mine. I thought maybe Margaret died at birth as Muriel was born later the same year but looking at bmd I can't see a death that's obviously her.
Many, many thanks

I haven't been looking at GR this morning because I found someone else's family tree on Ancestry, on it my John Babington (born 1865, London, Mum & dad Jane & John) was married to Elizabeth Carrington (1861), they had a son Ernest born 1893 and - guess what 2 daughters, Ellen (1999) and Rosie May (1900) - my Ellen and Rosie May! even though I have a birth certificate that says Ellen Clarke/Babbington was Rosie's mum. I've been checking censuses etc to check what happened to Elizabeth if perhaps John left her and ran away with Helen/Ellen. This doesn't explain why William isn't with Helen in 1901 or Ellen in 1911 (same person) but might explain why Lilian is a Clarke not a Babbington, as for Ernest (1910) being a Babington or Babbington - I don't know.

Anthony

I have not read all your thread but I have a suggestion for you as I have a similar name. Try this as a search term.

B*bin*t*n

That covers most of the misspellings in one go.

Back to William Clarke.

What do you think to this marriage and there are births with mmn Hughes in the names of the children you are looking for.

I had posted them but will send them by pm as they may be living.

Of course there's no way of knowing if they're correct without some certs.

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005
about William Clarke
Name: William Clarke
Spouse Surname: Hughes
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1936
Registration district: Birmingham
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1057
Spouse
Muriel L Hughes


Christine

Smethwick is covered by Sandwell. I have a Sandwell contact somewhere, will try to dig them out and see if they are visiting the library sometime soon.
Jan

Hi Brummiejan I think you have clarified the White Road Smethwick issue, as I did a further search this morning and it would appear that it was not covered on the Birmingham elec roll.

i also googled White rd Smethwick/ sparkbrook and they both exist and are several miles apart so Anthony will need to find the details for 1933 occupants elsewhere somehow --unfortunately.

Losing the plot slightly, but re. the White Road issue - not relevant unfortunately but:

KELLEY, Joseph Henry Head Married M 30 1881 Puncher And Shearer Staffordshire Smethwick VIEW
KELLEY, Fanny Jane Wife Married
5 years F 27 1884 Warwickshire Birmingham VIEW
KELLEY, Florence Lucy Daughter F 2 1909 Staffordshire Smethwick VIEW
MULLIS, George Thomas Boarder Widower M 54 1857 Labourer In General Warwickshire Birmingham VIEW
MULLIS, William John Boarder Single M 22 1889 Straightener In Staffordshire Smethwick VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
17963 Reference:
RG14PN17963 RG78PN1094 RD383 SD4 ED21 SN167

Registration District:
Kings Norton Sub District:
Smethwick Enumeration District:
21 Parish:
Smethwick

Address:
34 White Road Smethwick Staffordshire County:
Worcestershire

I sent a pm to BrummieJan recently & mentioned the White Rd connection as she lived in Smethwick for a while, this is just part of her reply: - "Well that's a co-incidence - I know where White Road is". She wasn't aware that you would be saying you could find it so didn't add any more but there wouldn't have been anything more to add, it just confirms that there is such a road. I'm thinking that it just might be useful to find out who else was living there with dad before he left when he married (1933).

1. 34 White Road on dad's mariage certificate (1933) was followed by 'Smethwick' I don't believe he stayed in Birmingham. He was married to Ivy Akiss.
2. Ellen & John are not definite but probably better than 'best guess'
3. The Ellen I'm looking for is Ellen (Senior), the Ellen at 23 Alfred Street in 1955 was Ellen (Junior) known to me as Auntie Nellie, she never married but had a son Philip who got married in Germany, his wife was Dora a German girl, I never knew her maiden name.
4.William Clarke, as I say on the thread I always believed he was the halfbrother of my dad and his sisters, I don't think I'm trying to find out how he fits in to the family tree but I am curious about exactly where & when he was born, why he didn't appear to be living with his mother as a child, when he married Auntie Muriel and what happened to him after I last saw him.
5. His children are my cousins (would you call them halfcousins?) I lost touch with all of them and I would like to add them to the family tree.
6. The only other thing I am trying to clear up at the moment is a birth for Lilian Clarke, it says on the 1911 census (when she is Lily Babangton) that she was born in Sheffield, Ecclesall Bierlow is classed as that. I just want to get the birth date and after discovering that she was a Clarke not a Babington/Babbington, make sure she was actually part of the main family or whether perhaps she was the daughter of a sister or relative of Ellen and maybe came to live with the family for one reason or another.
I'm sure that someone will able to enlighten us both about several points i.e. White Road, Smethwick
Do you have access to my family tree? if not and it would help, I can give you access.

I had a pm yesterday from a lady who is also very kindly trying to help me, she's been away so a lot of additions have been made to the thread during that time: -

Hi Anthony,

It is probably me and tell me so but I am still confused. I have had a fairly good look at your condensed thread but somewhere along the line I am losing the plot!

Your father was Ernest Babington - Is 34 white road on his marriage cert in 1933 ? On searching the elec roll the only 34 white road that comes up is Sparkbrook and a Davis family are living there on the roll in 1920 - 1940s . A second White road was obviously built in Harbourne but don't think that is correct area.
there are Ernest babbingtons in brum - did he stay in Brum ? He was married to ?

His parents were Ellen Clarke and John Babington ? Is this now definite or best guess ?

The Ellen Babington results are 269 Park road aston
106 Cooksey lane Kingstanding .
There is an Edgar with her over many years so again probably not right.

There is an ellen babbington at 23 alfred street - soho ward in 1955 with - dora babbington and philip babbington-- this is handsworth. so ??

the William Clarke question confuses me- you want to clarify how he fits in / establish if he is an elder half brother ?

The other Clarkes that you mention are they his children ? Your cousins ? I am really quite lost or maybe overtired ??

I think I have got confused because it seems that people have offered you so many different John Babingtons etc that I don't know which you believe to be correct. If you could tell me

Hi Christine
Yes, I've done that & found John. Still looking for a birth
Thanks
Anthony

On Ancestry you can just move either one page backwards or forward but I've heard that you can't do that on here.

Have you tried searching for Joseph or Edward and then looking at that image?

Christine

Hi Christine
I've just had a quick look at censuses and you could well have cracked it, except on GR 1881 census I can only find John age 42 at the bottom of the page, how do I go to the following page for the rest of the family please?

Hi Gaynor
I've already tried the common mis-spellings of my Babbington i.e. Bebbington, Bibbington, Bobbington but now you mention it I think I came across a Bebbington so I will look again.