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Hi Vanessa and Christine, working well this morning girls. I will ask if Lilian's graddaughter has a copy of John's death certificate, I know she mentioned sending for the birth certificate for William Clarke born 1904 Aston as she'd got him on her tree mainly because Lilian was born in Aston and wanted to check if he was the right one.
Lilian's daughter is now 82 and her daughter says sometimes she can remember more than others, if she's prompted with bits of information she can then open up.
If William was born in 1904 (her granddaughters Ancestry tree, not definite), he married in 1936 (definite) so he would have been 32 at that point, his children were born in 1937, 1940 and 1944 (definite) so he would have been 34 before his first child was born, I think it's much more likely he was the William Clarke that you found Christine, born in West Bromwich 1913.
William and Muriel lived in Alfred Street Handsworth after they were married in 1936, which is just around the corner from Watville Road where you've found him in 1920 & 1922/25 Vanessa, you also found him again in 1935 living at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street with his mum Ellen/Nellie and his sister Ellen Jane/Nellie Jane, too much of a coincidence to be anyone else.
I don't suppose he's on the electoral roll with Muriel any time after 1936?
Just going to start looking at Ellen Kirby Clarke.
Thanks

Hi Anthony,

Have you noticed the birth Vanessa found for Ellen Kirby Clarke?

It does seem a possibility doesn't it?

It would appear Ellen was a little economical with the truth when registering the births, as has been said earlier to perhaps cover up the fact that the children's father's weren't around.

It's strange as she was still using the name Babington in 1911.

Late Babington would mean that John Babington was deceased.

I have the actual image of the 1911 census which a contact obtained for me and it looks as if Lily was 8 and not 3.

If you would like the image, pm me your email address.

Does Lily's grandaughter have the death cert for John Babington?

Christine

Good Morning Vanessa

I now have a copy of the birth certificate for Lilian Clarke sent by her granddaughter: - No: 456 15th May 1903, 5 Court 6 Catherine Street, Name: Lilian Sex: Girl Father: John Clarke Mother: Ellen Clarke late Babington formerly Kirby Occupation of Father: a Glazier (then lower down) Journeyman Informant; X The mark of Ellen Clarke Mother 5 Court 6 Catherine Street Aston Manor Reg Date 25 June 1903
so that answers the question why Ellen was Babbington formerly Clarke on Rosies birth certificate, what do you think the 'late' refers to? I thought it meant they were dead.

If the above is correct I still haven't a clue why dad was a Babington unless she was involved with a relative of John's and then went back to being a Clake to have William or she had William before dad but that wouldn't explain why she died as a Clarke - this death is not absolutely definite.

Thanks for being there with me

Absolutely fantastic, really interesting about the William and Thomas Clarke, especially as dad was born 1910 Bk 73 Watville Rd and the 1911 census info for Ellen says she was living at 3 Bk 73 Watville Road, I don't think electoral rolls say how old they were do they?

Have you seen the birth of Ellen Kirby Clarke in birmingham decQ 1875 ???

Hi Anthony , still following your thread with interest.

If the parents of Rosie and Ellen are Ellen Kirby and John Babington then why does birth cert state " formerly Clarke ". ??

If the death in 1901 is the correct John B then he is obviously not the father of Lilian , Ernest or William. I don't want to throw a theory at it but I know from personal research that details on these certs are often not accurate and sometimes provide details to cover up the truth. I can see that you have more or less referred to this yourself.

It may well be that unfortunately if John b died in 1901 then Lilian , Ernest and William fathers' details may have been fabricated to cover Ellen's modesty.

Other findings

from the elec roll there is at 1back 73 Wattville road --1920

William and Thomas Clarke

4 back 73 Wattville rd--- 1922/25

William Clarke

going to have another look

bw
vanessa

I don't know if it's significant or not but the granddaughter of Lilian says that Ellen couldn't write, on Rosie May's birth certificate (1900) the person who has copied the record has started to put E Bba then crossed it out and written a 16 just after it, then put 'The mark of Ellen Babbington, Mother, 10 Copley Street, Ecclesall Bierlow, (there's no X), there's a compliment slip attached to the certificate and on that it says "The incomplete note in the margin reads 16 and refers to the correction in Col 7. but on Dad's birth certificate (1910) it gives the informant as E Babington, mother Bk 73 Watville Road, Handsworth as if she has signed this herself.
What does everyone think?

If you look at Ellen Babangton on Genes Reunited 1911 census, it is written quite clearly in the 'original enumerators summery book' the name Mrs Babbington, this has then been altered to Babangton, has anyone any idea why this would have happened? How much simpler my search would have been had it not been changed.
Anthony

Hi Gael from Down Under
Re your message posted on 3rd August I still don't know who the person is on the death you found but I do know for definite now that the Bertha Lilian Clark is not my Lilian
Many thanks anyway

Hi ChristineinPortugal
I've managed to learn from Lilian's graddaughter that the birth record for Lilian Clarke is May Q 1903, Aston, Aston Manor, Warwickshire.
It seems that Rosie May and Ellen Jane were the 2 eldest as far as her records are concerned, she seems to think that they were born to John Thomas M Babbington and Ellen Kirby, although I can't find a marriage for these 2 people. William Clarke is on her Ancestry tree born in 1904, a fact she's unsure about, it just made sense with the birth of her nan in 1903, so we are now both considering the birth date of 1913.
So we have Ellen having Babbington children, then a Clarke child, then a Babington child, then a Clarke child before finally dying as a Clarke herself.
I still have more info to exchange with Carol, will keep you informed.

Fantastic Anthony!
Jan

Fantastic ! Now I can worry about my own searches !! Only joking !

Keep us informed

best wishes

Vanessa

Pleased to hear you've made contact with someone.

Please let us know the outcome.

It will be interesting to know if there are marriages we haven't been able to find.

Christine

I should soon have the exact birth date for Lilian, the birth date for William and his death plus other interesting info as to how the mix of Babington/Babbington/Clarke came about. So please hold fire all you wonderful people who have been helping

Hooray, I've made contact with my Auntie Lil's granddaughter on Ancestry, she's got lots of details so I'll keep you all informed as things develop. Not available a lot until the weekend but will try to keep up.

Hi Christine
I think there was an Ernest born 1892/3 I've already looked at him some time ago and he's definitely not mine. It doesn't look at first glance that they do have any supporting evidence, I have sent a message and am awaiting a reply.
On the birth certificate I have for dad and Rosie May Ellen is formerly Clarke.
On the Lilley Weir tree on Ancestry there is a lot of detail about Ellen Jane and Rosie May Babbington, Lilian and William Clarke all seemingly with supporting evidence. I am awaiting a reply to the message I have sent.
Thanks for sticking with me

Hi Vanessa, you're a star. I will have to digest this one.
I've just sent for a copy of the marriage certificate for Ellen Clarke 1905 West Bromwich, on the records there isn't a male name so I was hoping that it would reveal something about her marrying a Babington to tie up with dad's birth. Now, you find out that she was definitely still a Clarke at her death,so what about my poor dad! I've got his birth certificate so I don't see how he can be the 1892 one.
Thanks very much for sticking with me

It would appear that some etails on the the tree on Ancestry are correct but they have Ernest born 1892 whereas your Ernest was born 1910.

The only thing to do is contact them and ask if they have certificates for the marriages.

On the birth certs you have though Ellen is formerly Clarke not Kirby.

Christine

Hoping this is going to get me a few brownie points !!

4 back 19 Alfred st

1920- NELLIE Clarke

4 court 2 Alfred st

1922--Nellie Clarke

1930--Nellie Clarke
Nellie Jane Babbington

1935--Nellie Clarke
Ellen Jane Babbington
William Clarke

Nellie !! isn't at Alfred St before 1920 on the Electoral Roll .

Just hit me that she might also be going by Nellie if her daughter was and lo and behold !!

Leave this with you to digest

Catch up later with any further progress

bw
Vanessa

Hi Rose
Re John Thomas M Babbington & Ellen Kirby. I have taken a look at some of the trees on Ancestry:-
1. One one tree JTMB born 1865 London, death June Q 1901, married Ellen Kirby (1873 - 1937) in Aug 1893 in Warwickshire, they had Ellen Jane & Rosie May (exactly same dates as my Aunties) and in Sept of the same year married Elizabeth Carrington, they had an Ernest in 1892, slightly before the wedding.
2.Ellen Kirby born Mch Q 1873, death 1936 4/19 Alfred Street, Handsworth married JTMB in 1897, they had Ellen Jane & Rosie May. She went on to marry John Howard Clarke in 1902, they had Lilian in 1903 and William in 1904.
Try as I might I cannot find a marriage between John Babbington & Ellen Kirby, he married Emily Treaser Grigg or a marriage with John H Clarke.
Can anyone please take a look to see who else was living at 4/19 Alfred Street in 1936, they could be part of the family.

This morning I have done as suggested, gone on to 1911 census and simply put in William Clarke and Handsworth as the place. I had 17 exact matches: -
1. William 1902, Born Sutton, Located West Brom - in hospital, is there anything else I can do with this one?
2. Ernest William 1900, Smethwick Staffordshire, West Brom - son age 11 of William James & Jane Elizabeth (married 27 yrs) @ 46 Booth St Handsworth
3. Reginald William 1895, Staffordshire Handsworth, Kings Norton, son age 16 of William & Alice Emily @ 34 Spring Rd Kings Heath
4. John William 1894 Portsmouth, West Brom - it's not him he's already been checked out
5. George William 1886, Warwick Birmingham, West Brom, son age 25 of Alfred Thomas and Maria (married 34 yrs) @ 106 Boulton Rd Handsworth
I haven't looked any further back because of the ages, George William would have been 48 when his youngest child was born