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Good Morning
Sorry this is somewhat lengthy but I hope you will find it interesting and useful. We now have some more info which leads us to believe that Ellen may have been married 4 times, it's from a website that explains how birth certificates were supposed to be completed and what info went into what column, from 1837 to 1969: -

Of column 4 - Name and Surname of the Father "this column should only be completed if the childs parents were married to each other. If this column is blank the mother was not married to the childs father, from 1875 it was possible for both parents who were not married to each other to be joint informants and then the fathers name will be entered into this column but, both parents would sign the informant section"

All the certificates we have show the fathers name and only one informant, that of the mother

Of column 5 - Name & Surname of Mother - "an unmarried woman will be shown as eg.Mary Smith. a married woman will be shown as eg. Mary Brown formerly Smith. if she has previously been widowed and remarried she will be eg. Mary Brown late Jones formerly Smith. If she has not been married but is using a different surname (for example her partners) she would be shown as eg. Mary Smith otherwise Green"

If we look at the birth certificate Lilian Clarke - Ellen is shown as Ellen Clarke late Babbington formerly Kirby (though of course that should be Clarke and they have entered her middle name and not her surname) and the fathers name of John Clarke is shown, this suggests Ellen is married to John Clarke by May 1903 but had been married to a Babbington, who was by that time deceased, as it says she was 'late babbington'.

This also means of course that Ellen Jane and Rosie/Rose May had a different Babbington father to that of Ernest as he had died well before Ernest was born, that is if we are looking at the correct person being the father of Ellen & Rosie, the death cert we are waiting for should confirm this. So Ellen had been the wife of a John Babbington then an Ernest Babbington in later years, Ernest could possibbly have been related to John perhaps a cousin or something.

On Rosie/Rose May's certificate it shows Ellen as Ellen Babbington formerly Clarke - so she must have been Mrs John Babbington previously.

Of column 6 -Occupation of Father it states " if the father died before the child was born it will state deceased after the occupation of the father".

Of column 7 " the informant can be just the mother, just the father (but only if he is married to the mother), the owner of an institution eg.workhouse master or hospital matron, this would usually be the person in charge of the child if the mother died in childbirth"

Of column 10 it states that "this should be blank unless the name of the child changes i.e. if the child was given different names between the birth being recorded and the child being christened column 10 would be filled in after the christening.

Finally, as the other columns are pretty self explanetary, this is quite interesting - of column 2 it says " common right through to the early 20th century was the use of a family surname as a 2nd given name, frequently it was the mothers or grandmothers maiden name" as with the name Ellen Kirby Clarke

All really informative and interesting, we just have to remember that there were guidelines for certificates and for censuses and we all know how deceptive the censuses info can be.

Now down to lots more hard work....

Hi Anthony.
If Elizabeth Babbington was actually bapt Caroline Eliza Carrington have found a death which could be her Caroline Babbington 1st quarter 1897 Birmingham b circ 1864. This means that both John & Ellen were widowed when & if they ever married.
Incidentally, if Caroline Eliza & Elizabeth are one & the same which I suspect they are, Her father George Carrington had been married before.
Marion

Hi Wisechild (what a lovely user name)
More pieces for the vastly expanding jigsaw, much appreciate your help

The theory behind the username is that I know my own father, but with some of the things that get unearthed, you can never be too sure.
Your family is a bit like trying to do a complicated jigsaw without the picture, but I have no doubt you will get there in the end
Trying to work from abroad isn´t easy as I know to my cost. Oh for the days when I could just pop into Birmingham Central Library,but then I didn´t have the sunshine (or the time when I was working)
Marion

Hi Marion
You said you couldn't find either of the Christophers in 1901 (this might have been on a pm), here's Christopher Junior in 1911 & 1916 so assume he was away in 1901: -

Name Christopher Babington
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender
Age 20 Years
Estimated Year of Birth 1891
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Worcester
Military Rank Driver 82nd Battery R F A
Institution Name 82 Nd Battery Royal Field Artillery
Institution Description 82nd Battery Royal Field Artillery, Kirkee, India
Enumerator Information
Address Kirkee India
Town Kirkee India
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN34997 RD641 SD22 ED21 SN9999
Administrative County Overseas Military
Enumeration District 21


Name: Christopher Babbington
Birth Place: Worcester
Death Date: 31 Oct 1916
Death Location: Turkey
Enlistment Location: Bristol, Glos.
Rank: DVR.
Regiment: Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery
Number: 56038
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Balkan Theatre

Hi Tony.
Thanks for that. Every little bit of info helps to build the picture.
You may know this already, but I was browsing an area map on FamilyTreemaker yesterday & noticed that there is a Babington Road not far from Niniveh Road . Not sure whether it would be classed as Handsworth or Hockley & can´t put my hand on my A-Z to check.
Marion

Hi Marion I knew about Babington Rd it's in Handsworth.

I can't seem to find what happened to Christopher Snr. I've tried deaths and military so far and various spellings of surname, it doesn't help that mum & daughter were on a jolly in Birmingham the night of the 1901 census

1861 Census at 66 Dartmouth Street, Birmingham, this looks awfully like our Elizabeth, as you say why do they complicate things so much? Why if you are named Elizabeth would you call your one daughter Elizabeth and then 5 years later call your younger one Lizzie?

William Corrington
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth Corrington
Gender: Male
Where born: Wragby, Lincolnshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Duddeston
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 109
Household Members: Name Age
William Corrington 39
Elizabeth Corrington 34
Elizabeth Corrington 5
Lizzie Corrington 1
Ellen Rouse 23
Thomas Mantle 50
Susannah Mantle 52
William Good 28
William Corrington 7days

On Ancestry an tree I've seen Elizabeth Carrington/Feeney as Elizabeth Lawrence but not managed to find birth or marriage to William yet.

Tony.
How about this one in 1871
116 Brearley St West
George Carrington H M Button Manufacturer b Handsworth
Emma Carrington Wife
Emily Carrington d Unm 18 pearl button maker
Mary Ann Carrington d unm 13 seal & key maker
Elizabeth Carrington d unm 11 B Sheffield (reg as Caroline Eliza)
Jane Carrington d unm 9 (reg as Sarah Jane)
Maria Carrington d unm 8
George Carrington s unm 6
Helen Carrington d unm 2
Arthur Carrington s unm 1
Hansell (should be Harriet) Carrington d unm 1month
Think they are George Carrington & Emma Chadd marr 4th quarter 1856
Emma died 1st quarter 1874.
Hardly surprising after that lot!!
Marion

Just to add to that.
George Carrington´s 1st wife was called Mary Ann.
She was mother of Louisa abt 1846,Emily abt 1851 & Mary Ann abt 1856. She died 3rd quarter 1856.
Looks like George re married 4th quarter 1856 to Emma Chadd in West Bromwich. No point in hanging about obviously.
No idea why Caroline Eliza was born Sheffield but her baptism is on familysearch.

Thanks for all this, the emunerators back then had a lot to answer for, didn't they ever check things if they weren't sure?
I 've been adding a lot to the Kirby's on our Ancestry tree, censuses etc which I find much easier to do on there. I'm puzzling over 1881 census for Thomas (Tom) Kirby b 1847, there's an Ann Millward age 66 listed as his mother, how can this be? On 1851 census he's age 5 with mum and dad William Kirby and Caroline (Beckett)

Hi Tony.
Sounds complicated I know, but maybe Caroline Kirby died, William re married to Ann? then he died & she re married Millward.
It´s happened several times in my tree.
Marion

Had a look at your Tom Kirby in 1871. Says he was born London.
Had you noticed (I,m sure you had) that in 1851 the surname is spelled Kerby.
In 1861 there´s an Ellen Kerby aged 12 working as a servant in Birmingham. Havn´t found any other family members yet.
Marion

Good Morning Marion
Yes, I'd noticed the surname being spilled Kerby on more than one occassion, thanks for the info about Ellen age 12. There's so many of this Kirby family I'm having to be quite careful I don't pick up wrong ones, I think I'll have to go back and re-check some of them.

Walter Ernest Babington born 1877 Aston Birmingham could be a contender as my granddad, can see him on census in 1881, 1891, 1901. Unfortunately he's married to Jane and they have children but who knows...... Looks like he dies in 1915 WW1. Will have to look closer.

Clutching at straws a bit here Tony, but have found a marriage for Nellie Clarke & George Clarke 4th quarter 1913 Eccleshall Bierlow (Sheffield).
Probably a complete red herring, but if it is your Nellie it would indicate that she was never married to John babbington & that William Clarke b 1913 was probably George´s son born before the marriage ,which is why he was a Clarke & not a Babbington
Marion

My immediate thought on reading this is that Ellen had already left Sheffield by 1911 and was on the census as Ellen Babangton with all the children except William (yet to be born). Our thought were that she came back to her roots after John Babington/Babbington died in 1901 but, until we receive the death cert for him we can't be sure he is the right John

Thank you very much for finding it and I will try to investigate it further.

Also William Clarke's (1913 - 1995) living son is sure that his older brother was named William John Clarke (1937 - 2003) after his grandad

A look at the 1911 census shows that there were 5 Nellie Clarkes living in Ecclesall Bierlow only one born 1889 of marriagable age as the others were younger. There were 22 George Clarkes one age 23, two age 24, and one age 37, the last one would have been the most likely as Ellen b 1875 would have been 36 by then. I'm almost certain that the Ellen we have is the right one, just waiting for her death cert to confirm this.

Well I did say it could be a complete red herring but from earlier research it would seem that Ellen´s family had a connection with Sheffield through her mother. I realise that she came back to Birmingham, but she could well have known her Clarke spouse for years. Maybe he was married to somebody else & wasn´t free to marry her. Not that many people seem to have worried about minor inconveniences like an existing spouse.
This family is such a web of inconsistencies that it doesn´t pay to leave any stone unturned.
Hopefully the death cert will provide a few more clues, but they give very little info about the deceased.
Marion

Look what Marion has found: -

I get more confused with this lot, the more I look at them.
Have found a marriage for Ellen Clarke 2nd quarter 1890 Birmingham. On the same page is marriage for Arthur Thomas Carrington who was brother of Thomas Babbington´s 1st wife Elizabeth (Caroline Eliza). On the 91 census, Arthur is a private in the army based in Hampshire. Can´t find Ellen, but in 1901 there are 3 Carrington children, Arthur,May & Henry in a children´s home in Coleshill, all born between 1890-1894.
I´m thinking, did Ellen marry Arthur, have 3 kids with him then go off with his brother in law Thomas Babbington while Arthur was away in the Army? If so, it probably means that Ellen & Thomas never married.
More food for thought.
Marion

Haven't checked this out yet, just thought I'd share it with everyone else. Any comments?