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Fantastic Anthony!
Jan

Hi ChristineinPortugal
I've managed to learn from Lilian's graddaughter that the birth record for Lilian Clarke is May Q 1903, Aston, Aston Manor, Warwickshire.
It seems that Rosie May and Ellen Jane were the 2 eldest as far as her records are concerned, she seems to think that they were born to John Thomas M Babbington and Ellen Kirby, although I can't find a marriage for these 2 people. William Clarke is on her Ancestry tree born in 1904, a fact she's unsure about, it just made sense with the birth of her nan in 1903, so we are now both considering the birth date of 1913.
So we have Ellen having Babbington children, then a Clarke child, then a Babington child, then a Clarke child before finally dying as a Clarke herself.
I still have more info to exchange with Carol, will keep you informed.

Hi Gael from Down Under
Re your message posted on 3rd August I still don't know who the person is on the death you found but I do know for definite now that the Bertha Lilian Clark is not my Lilian
Many thanks anyway

If you look at Ellen Babangton on Genes Reunited 1911 census, it is written quite clearly in the 'original enumerators summery book' the name Mrs Babbington, this has then been altered to Babangton, has anyone any idea why this would have happened? How much simpler my search would have been had it not been changed.
Anthony

I don't know if it's significant or not but the granddaughter of Lilian says that Ellen couldn't write, on Rosie May's birth certificate (1900) the person who has copied the record has started to put E Bba then crossed it out and written a 16 just after it, then put 'The mark of Ellen Babbington, Mother, 10 Copley Street, Ecclesall Bierlow, (there's no X), there's a compliment slip attached to the certificate and on that it says "The incomplete note in the margin reads 16 and refers to the correction in Col 7. but on Dad's birth certificate (1910) it gives the informant as E Babington, mother Bk 73 Watville Road, Handsworth as if she has signed this herself.
What does everyone think?

Hi Anthony , still following your thread with interest.

If the parents of Rosie and Ellen are Ellen Kirby and John Babington then why does birth cert state " formerly Clarke ". ??

If the death in 1901 is the correct John B then he is obviously not the father of Lilian , Ernest or William. I don't want to throw a theory at it but I know from personal research that details on these certs are often not accurate and sometimes provide details to cover up the truth. I can see that you have more or less referred to this yourself.

It may well be that unfortunately if John b died in 1901 then Lilian , Ernest and William fathers' details may have been fabricated to cover Ellen's modesty.

Other findings

from the elec roll there is at 1back 73 Wattville road --1920

William and Thomas Clarke

4 back 73 Wattville rd--- 1922/25

William Clarke

going to have another look

bw
vanessa

Have you seen the birth of Ellen Kirby Clarke in birmingham decQ 1875 ???

Good Morning Vanessa

I now have a copy of the birth certificate for Lilian Clarke sent by her granddaughter: - No: 456 15th May 1903, 5 Court 6 Catherine Street, Name: Lilian Sex: Girl Father: John Clarke Mother: Ellen Clarke late Babington formerly Kirby Occupation of Father: a Glazier (then lower down) Journeyman Informant; X The mark of Ellen Clarke Mother 5 Court 6 Catherine Street Aston Manor Reg Date 25 June 1903
so that answers the question why Ellen was Babbington formerly Clarke on Rosies birth certificate, what do you think the 'late' refers to? I thought it meant they were dead.

If the above is correct I still haven't a clue why dad was a Babington unless she was involved with a relative of John's and then went back to being a Clake to have William or she had William before dad but that wouldn't explain why she died as a Clarke - this death is not absolutely definite.

Thanks for being there with me

Absolutely fantastic, really interesting about the William and Thomas Clarke, especially as dad was born 1910 Bk 73 Watville Rd and the 1911 census info for Ellen says she was living at 3 Bk 73 Watville Road, I don't think electoral rolls say how old they were do they?

Hi Anthony,

Have you noticed the birth Vanessa found for Ellen Kirby Clarke?

It does seem a possibility doesn't it?

It would appear Ellen was a little economical with the truth when registering the births, as has been said earlier to perhaps cover up the fact that the children's father's weren't around.

It's strange as she was still using the name Babington in 1911.

Late Babington would mean that John Babington was deceased.

I have the actual image of the 1911 census which a contact obtained for me and it looks as if Lily was 8 and not 3.

If you would like the image, pm me your email address.

Does Lily's grandaughter have the death cert for John Babington?

Christine

Hi Vanessa and Christine, working well this morning girls. I will ask if Lilian's graddaughter has a copy of John's death certificate, I know she mentioned sending for the birth certificate for William Clarke born 1904 Aston as she'd got him on her tree mainly because Lilian was born in Aston and wanted to check if he was the right one.
Lilian's daughter is now 82 and her daughter says sometimes she can remember more than others, if she's prompted with bits of information she can then open up.
If William was born in 1904 (her granddaughters Ancestry tree, not definite), he married in 1936 (definite) so he would have been 32 at that point, his children were born in 1937, 1940 and 1944 (definite) so he would have been 34 before his first child was born, I think it's much more likely he was the William Clarke that you found Christine, born in West Bromwich 1913.
William and Muriel lived in Alfred Street Handsworth after they were married in 1936, which is just around the corner from Watville Road where you've found him in 1920 & 1922/25 Vanessa, you also found him again in 1935 living at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street with his mum Ellen/Nellie and his sister Ellen Jane/Nellie Jane, too much of a coincidence to be anyone else.
I don't suppose he's on the electoral roll with Muriel any time after 1936?
Just going to start looking at Ellen Kirby Clarke.
Thanks

Hi Vanessa
I got really excited when I saw the name Ellen Kirby Clarke, I've found the birth ok but there's no marriage for an Ellen Kirby Clarke, Ellen Clarke or Ellen Kirby between 1890 and 1920.
As she is supposed to have died a Clarke in 1936/7 I doubt if she was ever married to anyone, what did you say about modesty? Doesn't sound like she had much!
Lilian's granddaughter now tells me that she has no proof of the marriage to John H (Howard) Clarke and the date of 1902 just fitted nicely between the birth of Rosie May in 1900 and her nan (Lilian) in 1903. She has decided to take him off her tree after I pointed out that the date of birth and death she had for him on her tree would have made him 56 when he died but the record she had as proof said he was 44.

Hi Vanessa
How old would William have had to have beeen to appear on the Electoral roll in 1920. Excuse my ignorance, I'm thinking that if he is the William born 1913 he would only have been 7 and I don't think children appeared then or now
Thanks very much

Hi Anthony,

You had to be of voting age to be on the electoral roll.

I emailed the 1911 image, hope you've received it.

Christine

Hi Christine
Thank you I have the 1911 image, very useful although I'm not sure with my fading eyesight I'd be able to make out what it said about lily's age if you hadn't pointed it out.
How old would the voting age have been then, do you know?
The marriage you found for William Clarke was definitely the right one, I suppose the only way to find his age is to send for the marriage certificate. If I sent for every certificate I know it would be much easier to do this search but I am trying to keep the costs down where possible
thanks again

Hi
I've spent the afternoon looking through possible marriages for Ellen Kirby Clarke and Ellen Clarke from 1890 to 1920, absolutely nothing.
I also looked for Thomas Clarke and William Clarke in Birmingham on the 1911 census checking each of the addresses hoping one of them might be familiar but again no joy
Keep going.......

Hi Anthony , just found all the recent additions. At least now you are beginning to put a few more details in place.

I will search the electoral roll for the Catherine st address just on the off chance. I will also post Thomas Clarke' s army reference as he is at war in 1918 and there was a special register produced for those absent from home.

Back asap

vanessa

edit--

Thomas Clarke 1918 --53474, Gnr,115 Hvy Bty, RGA

William and Muriel Clarke remain at 4 bk 19 Alfred st until 1955 where the roll stops on the site that I use.

Hi Vanessa
Being very new to all this I didn't know that there was a special register for those absent from home. The family story goes that both my granddads were killed during WWI, I found my mum's dad really easily. Do you think you could look at this special register for a John Babington or Babbington or even an Ernest Babington just in case Ellen was involved with more than one.
How can I make use of the information you have found for Thomas Clarke? Because he might have been the one living at 1 Bk 73 Wattville Road in 1920 with a William Clarke I was rather hoping he might have been my Williams dad
Did you ever find anyone of interest at the 34 White Road address, where dad got married from in 1933?
Many thanks

Hi Anthony, I am not hugely experienced myself. I was hoping that somewhere along the line we would find a Clarke family that made sense for you. Possibly on earlier census etc. One of your biggest issues is how common names like William Clarke or even Ellen are.

We have also been struggling with any definites regarding Ellen, such as her absolutely correct name . If she was Ellen Kirby then we could scour the census 1881/ 91 for her with her family.

regarding Thomas Clarke and his army career there are definitely places you can find out lots about the person. Problem is I don't know how and where. I have however seen in other threads people giving others lots of info they somehow have access to. Why don't you put a general query on one of the other boards. You don't have to be specific , just ask how you can get hold of someone's army records. If they offer to help direct them to this thread and take it from there.

34 white road smethwick did not appear to be covered by the birmingham elec roll. The two White roads that appear are in Sparkbrook and ?? can't remember now but I did post it sometime last week on here.

If I was going to apply a theory then my best shot would be Ellen marries John B . They have two children in Sheffield. He dies. Ellen returns to Brum. Now either she marries a Clarke or was always a Clarke. If that is the case then the William/Thomas Clarkes we find are either family or husbands. This then begs the question why Babington on 1911 census and your dad's birth cert ?? Telling you here what you already know !!
She would appear though to keep the name Clarke and my hunch is that was always her name. If she had married a Clarke why would she use Babington in 1911 and say she was a widow ?

I am going to look at earlier census and see what I can pick up.

bw
Vanessa

Military record.

He gives his next of kin as William Clarke father of the same address. If you want a copy just PM me your e mail address and I will send it. There's isn't much of it but it's well worth having.

Thomas Clarke>>>>single bricklayer
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Age at Enlistment: 34
Residence: 73 Wattville Rd, Handsworth Birmingham Thas
Document Year: 1914
Regimental Number: 53474
Regiment Name: Royal Garrison Artillery
Number of Images: 9

Hi Anthony,

Pleased you have received the image.

I realise the expense of the certificates but as you mentioned your contact getting the birth cert I thought it would be better to get his correct age from the marriage cert.

It's so difficult with such a common name isn't it?

Christine