Find Ancestors

A couple of setbacks this week, the birth cert for William Clark was ordered with the district given as Birmingham instead of West Bromwich and registration quarter as Sept instead of Dec, an easy mistake to make as the person who ordered it knew William was born in Sept and lived mainly in Birmingham. It's been re-ordered and despatch date is 6 Oct, so not too long to wait.

The other was John Babington's death cert request came back as 'nothing found' and no charge, it has now been ordered with the full details from the death record we found so hopefully will produce a result this time.

Hi Anthony, Vanessa here. Sorry I haven't been chipping in but work and various other things have limited my time. I have been following the thread but think I have lost my way with it a bit so please excuse my confusion if I get things wrong.

With the info that Marion found wouldn't your Ellen have been 15 in 1890 ? Is it likely/ possible that she had 3 children with this Arthur at such a young age ?

Is the "Thomas" referred to the person we have previously called John Babbington ? If not I have completely lost that plot.

Other theories seem to have Ellen moving back and forth to Sheffield and marrying Babbingtons and Clarkes in rotation. Probably because I haven't re read every entry I am on the wrong track here but is this really likely?

If there are any of these people you have unearthed I can look for on the electoral roll I will happily do so.

Best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa.
Sorry, the confusion over Thomas/John is my fault. I did mean John Babbington who was married to Elizabeth, but had the John Thomas who died on my brain.
Again, apologies.
Yes, Ellen would only have been 15, but she told so many lies that anything is possible, particularly if she was pregnant,which I suspect she was.
Arthur Carrington would only have been 19. Can´t even be sure that the Arthur Carrington I found on the 91 census in the Army is the same chap, although he was born Birmingham.
Still have a feeling that Ellen & John Babbington never married.
I just sent my findings to Tony so that he could check them out in more depth & either prove or disprove them.
Again, sorry for confusing the issue even further.
Marion

Hi Vanessa
Glad you're still with us, we understand that work will take up a lot of your time, this retirement thing is great but it is amazing how much of your time is taken up and you can't really explain where it went. Of course the family tree has taken up far more time than I ever expected it to as we're still trying to keep 2 trees going.

Yes, if the Ellen Marion has found is our Ellen Kirby Clarke then she would have been 15 and I suppose it is quite likely that she could have had 3 children so young but, that means over her lifetime she would have had 8 children, my goodness! Although during this research some my 'family' do seem to have a huge amount of children, something to do with having no tv perhaps?

From our research Ellen did spend some time in Sheffield although I don't know if she had family there or just moved there to be away from Birmingham and John's wife. John's occupation at one time was a file grinder so the theory is that he found work there when he left Elizabeth to be with Ellen.

I googled Ecclesall Bierlow recently and found some interesting sites including one which gave details of the 1881 census, it was interesting to see that there were no Babington's living there at that time, so none of John's family for he & Ellen to run to.

I'm going to check out Marion's info in more detail today, will keep you informed.

n

Hi Anthony I have finally managed to re read the whole thread and tried to put some things down in order to help me get my head around the progress you have made and what has so far been sorted with certs etc.

The theory about Ellen having 3 children at 15 /16 /17 is not one I can instantly disprove but she is living with her brothers and sisters in 1891 - noted on one of your earlier pages- so unless she was pregnant at the time ?? Those births would have to be found and investigated to prove this.

Just for reference Robert and Elizabeth Clarke of Alfred Road stay at that address for many years and have two sons with them- Robert jnr and Dennis. Again with such a common surname we are struggling to make definite links. I can see the connections explained by Marion to Muriel / William Clarke but who are we suggesting is connected to Ellen ? Unless I am mistaken Ellen would have been the same generation as Robert snr ? Is the idea he may have had a brother who Ellen became involved with ? If so wouldn't that make Muriel / william sort of cousins ?? I think I am definitely barking up the wrong tree here.!!


Having looked at the little pockets of Clarkes we have found in and around the census and on the elec roll I think I might have been over optimistic in connecting them to Ellen in some way. Some of it is probably simply down to the common nature of the surname.

I hope I am not coming across as too negative .I can sense that you are really enjoying the searching Anthony and that is half the fun. I do want to help and much like everyone else following your thread I would love to find the key piece of info that helps lots of other things drop into place.

So I am going to have a look around and see what comes up.

Hope the certs arrive soon

Best wishes

vanessa

Good Morning Vanessa
Thanks you so much for your continued support, there hasn't really been any definite info lately for anyone to get to grips with. You're right, with a name like Clark it is difficult to make links without proof.

The despatch date for William Clarke's birth cert is 6 October but, I'm afraid due to a bit of confusion the one for John Thomas M Babington is 25 Oct, whereas I thought Ellen Kirby Clarkes death cert had been ordered it hasn't so that will probably be even longer.

At least without any new evidence it is giving me time to do a lot of tidying up around both trees, the one on Ancestry is much bigger, I seem to find working on there much easier for instance when you do a bmd search for someone already on the tree you only need to input the first name and the system completes all the relevent info. Also the access to many public member trees gives you the opportunity to double check your theories with other people, the same families keep cropping up when I do that so I'm obviously on the right track.

But I won't be giving up GR as yet, I've had so much help from people like yourself on here.

Hi Vanessa.
Please excuse me for butting in, but I think the feeling is that Ellen Clarke was mother of William Clarke who married Muriel Hughes.
William was father of Stan Clarke who is also looking for her.
Marion

Hi Anthony, it got too late last night to carry on searching. My tiredness probably also accounts for my inability to express myself clearly enough over the Robert Clarke link to Muriel Hughes.

Marion , I can see from the depth of research you have obviously undertaken on the Sewells / Hughes / Clarkes etc you clearly know your stuff and I was not doubting the connection . I simply couldn't get my head around what exactly the relationship would be if Muriel Hughes had an uncle ( by marriage ?) who was a Clarke and then how he may relate to Ellen Clarke who I knew was the mother of William Clarke who married Muriel.

Anthony, If I get a chance later I will have a look at things generally, not that I will necessarily find anything you don't already have !!

The other thing that I can also offer is a trip to Central library in Birmingham for you if anything is outstanding in the next couple of weeks. I keep meaning to go and it may speed things up if I get a chance .

Marion, I take it you are no longer Birmingham based , is it relatively straight forward to search at the library? I think you made a comment on a thread that you had been there. ( I also added to your thread on an Aunt Amelia who you were tracing and came up with " Milly Shaw" with your Sewell Relative ??)

Sorry to hijack your thread Anthony

All best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa.
You are quite right, I have been living in Spain for 5 years so researching in Brum is pretty much out of the question.
When I was living there I took a 2 year Certificate of Higher Education in Family History, run by Birmingham University but held at Central Library,so used the Local History & Archives sections virtually every week.
The staff are very friendly & helpful,especially in the Archives although you do need a readers card to use the facilities. They are issued on the spot, but you need some form of ID which includes both your name & address, such as a recent utility bill.
Problem with the Clarke/ Hughes lot is that they kept repeating christian names down the generations.
Muriel Hughes 1 who was daughter of Elijah & Flora Sewell was my grandmother´s niece.
She married William Clarke & had a daughter called Muriel.
Flora & Elijah also had a son called Stanley, after who my father was named, and as I now know, so was Stanley Clarke.
Hope that sheds a bit of light.
If the family are so confused by it all, can´t imagine how you are keeping tabs on it.
You deserve a medal for perseverence.
Marion

Hi Vanessa & Marion
Gosh I feel humble in the presense of 2 ladies of such obvious intelligence and grateful that you are helping me when I know that you both have your own research to do.

Vanessa thank you for the offer of a visit to Birmingham Central Library, as I've only been doing this research for a few months I've not been there nor have any knowledge of what records they might hold that would be relevant.

Can either of you think of any information I can give you that you could use for my research? I really don't want to take up too much of your time when you are visiting the library as I'm sure you have much of your own work to do.

Edit... just thought, would they hold cemetary records there?

Hi Tony.
I seem to be coming at you from all directions today.
Yes Central Library do have cemetery records . They also have books of monumental inscriptions from various graveyards.
You really need to have some idea of where the burial took place & when.
They are mainly only Birmingham cemeteries & bear in mind that cremation was becoming a popular choice by the 20th century.
Marion

Hi Marion, slight unestimation on my behalf that " you might have been " to Central library !!! Thank you for the explanation re : the Clarkes/ Hughes. Hopefully when Tony gets further info from certs we will be able to establish how the wider circle of Clarkes are actually connected to Ellen.

Tony, I am more than happy to go and have a shot at finding a few bits and pieces at the library. I can't say how much I might be able to find on my first trip but if you gave me a list of various things to search I will certainly give it a go.

Marion, do they have copies of Births/Deaths/ Marriages ? Maybe I could look at those to begin with ? Are they on microfiche ?

Interms of my own research have been fairly lucky with my Birmingham relatives as I had a lot of information to begin with . My brickwalls are further afield .

awaiting further instruction !!

best wishes

Vanessa

Thanks Vanessa
I'll try to comple a small list over the next few days.

Hi Vanessa.
When I was last there about 5 years ago, they had all the GRO BMDs on microfilm. It was necessary to book a reader, especially at busy times such as Saturdays & it cost about 50p per half hour although this will undoubtedly have increased.
You need to book in at the information desk on the 6th floor. Don´t think you need ID to use them.
They also had the original (pre on line)IGI on microfiche. They used to be on open display, but due to regular theft ,they were moved to the information desk & you had to ask for the specific ones you wanted & sign them in & out.
Also on open shelves on the 6th floor are books of PRs for various places,not just in the Midlands, & the same for Trade directories,Electoral Rolls, Monumental Inscriptions,films of censuses for B´ham,old newspapers going back over 100 years registers of wills from 1858 to about 1955.
In fact you need a full day just to find out whats there.
On the top floor in the archives there are school records, company records, rates books, coroners records, some original parish records for B´ham churches, workhouse records, poor law records etc etc etc.
It´s a wonderful place for the addict & as I say, the staff are very helpful . Most of them have been there for years & are very knowledgeable.
Hope you enjoy your visit.
Marion

Thanks for that Marion. I certainly want to give it a go so will get myself organised and go as prepared as possible with a few specific things to search for. Hope it doesn't become my next level of addiction !! My husband casts a disdainful look into the room when I am on the computer !

best wishes

vanessa

Gosh, think you'd better take flask, food and a tent!

Vanessa, regarding the electroral roll look-ups you offered. Would it be much work for you to look at Ellen each year from May 1903 when we know she was definitely back in Birmingham as Ellen Clarke for Lilian Clarke's birth at 5 Court 6 Catherine Street, through the birth of my father Ernest Babington in May 1910 at Bk 73 Watville Rd Handsworth (no number at the back of 73 on birth cert ) when she was Ellen Babington. Through the 1911 census when she was Ellen Babangton at 3 Bk 73 Watville Rd to the birth of William Clarke in 1913 unfortunately that cert isn't due to be despatched until tomorrow so have no idea what she was calling herself then, best guess would be Ellen Clarke.

What we were hoping to find was the name of a man, any man, living with her but preferably John Clarke or Ernest Babington.

Do say if this is something that would take up too much of your time, you've already done lots for us or if you'd prefer to wait until we have an address for William's birth. We do remember you saying that Ellen was not at the Alfred St address before 1920

Gosh, think you'd better take flask, food and a tent!

Vanessa, regarding the electroral roll look-ups you offered. Would it be much work for you to look at Ellen each year from May 1903 when we know she was definitely back in Birmingham as Ellen Clarke for Lilian Clarke's birth at 5 Court 6 Catherine Street. Through the birth of my father Ernest Babington in May 1910 at Bk 73 Watville Rd Handsworth (no number at the back of 73 on birth cert ) when she was Ellen Babington. Through the 1911 census when she was Ellen Babangton at 3 Bk 73 Watville Rd to the birth of William Clarke in 1913 unfortunately that cert isn't due to be despatched until tomorrow so have no idea what she was calling herself then, best guess would be Ellen Clarke.

What we are hoping you'll find is the name of a man, living with her, any man but preferably John Clarke, William John Clarke, John Babington or Babbington or Ernest Babington.

Do say if this is something that would take up too much of your time, you've already done lots for us or if you'd prefer to wait until we have an address for William's birth. We do remember you saying that Ellen was not at the Alfred St address before 1920

Edit... found it, you found Ellen on electoral rolls: -

1920 at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street as Nellie Clarke

At 4 Court 2 Alfred Street in: -

1922 as Nellie Clarke
1930 as Nellie Clarke along with Nellie Jane Babbington
1935 as Nellie Clarke with Ellen Jane Babbington and William Clarke

This was also the address that William Jnr was married from in November 1936

You also found that William and Muriel lived at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street until 1955, such a lot of swopping around of houses!

Just a footnote - I was at the Central Library on a weekday about 2 weeks ago. No charge for microfilm readers and no need to book - just helped myself!
Parish records are available on microfilm too and accessible to the public.
Jan

Hi Anthony.
Me again.
With regard to the street numbering,if there was a small court at the back of a house, the address would be shown as 1bk 25 for example.
I think the address you are looking at would be a "blind back" where the back wall of the front house was a party wall with the back wall of the back house, which faced in the opposite direction (hope you can understand what I mean)
For these houses, the address would be 1 &either 1 back or back1.
had a friend who lived in this type of house in Cato Street Nechells in the 60s before they were demolished. Naturally, there was no rear exit or rear windows for either property. Lovely.!
Marion