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Mike, back on 9 July I explained that if he was born in Newfoundland in 1864 he wasn't Canadian but a month later you're still talking about his Canadian descent.

Thanks for all who replied. In response to Janey I did follow up Edwin connection but got a rather curt reply saying my ancestor couldn't be related as their Seymours all originate from Gosport. (although that of course does not count him out of the equation at all) I did request to view their tree but no response to date. I have spent quite a lot of money buying marriage & birth cert's and until I am a little more sure of any link I am somewhat hesitant in ordering them although I may just have to.

In response to Margaret, My mention of his Canadian descent is based purely on his 'geographical birth' as opposed to any birth whose criteria is based on which country may or may not have been the ruling power at any particular point in history. I am aware of Newfoundland's pre-1949 status. My ancestor in question (William Arthur Seymour) was definitely born in St. John's, Newfoundland as copies of his military record dictate as such so hopefully that will end any doubting Thomas's on this question.

I will always follow up leads as I am acutely aware of the time and effort this involves and consequently I am very grateful to those who reply; however on occasions like many others researching their family history, I simply need to take a break. The very recent death of my father has not helped and any ground I have not covered re: leads I will indeed take on board

I know how it feels, Mike. I think every distant cousin I've contacted here has started out by saying "no, sorry, couldn't be, for [blah blah] reason". In my case it comes from being the stray sheep -- the branch of four different families that emigrated to Canada after 1900. Nobody knew we existed. ;)

For your correspondent, remember what I posted above -- if I'm right and this is your William, the family *does* originate in Gosport!!

1851
Dionysius Seymour 47 - Waterman, born Gosport
Charlotte Seymour 45 - Midwife, born Gosport
James Seymour 18
Jane Seymour 11
??? William Seymour 9
Sarah Seymour 7

So when the person with Edwin born in Newfoundland (who I think is your William/Arthur's brother) says the family comes from Gosport, that does more to *confirm* your connection (at least by my hypothesis) than to deny it!

I usually don't recommend asking to see people's trees. I find it presumptuous when people ask me that without first having a whole conversation to establish that we're related and how. Since we know that person doesn't have your William/Arthur in his tree, seeing it won't help establish that you're related.

You might want to direct him to this thread, where he can see his people, who I'm sure are the 1851 Gosport household, and see how we think your William/Arthur ties in (son of William c1841, son of Dionysius and Charlotte).


Nobody's doubting the birth in Newfoundland -- in fact that's what my theory about the Gosport Seymours is based on. It's just that there's no point in calling it Canada, or searching Canadian records (other than looking on Canadian sites for *Newfoundland* records), because there was just no connection. Newfoundland was as different from Canada, records-wise, as Jamaica was.


I'm very sorry to hear about your dad. Mine died 7 years ago and how I wish I could tell him the tales I now know. ;)

Thanks Janey, I will certainly chase up the 'Edwin' connection again to see what transpires and soon as I do I'll post the outcome

I have now had a response from one of the GR members regarding Edwin Seymour. Unfortunately their tree has not proved conclusive in any way as the member concerned has no information on (William) Arthur Seymour. The only one of that name was born about 1897 and was the son of Edwin Seymour, The tree concerned does not give any details of who the ancestors of Edwin were; the trail, so to speak, seems to go cold.

Once more, if anyone has any ideas as to how I can further trace (William) Arthur Seymour's birth records or anything at all regarding his parents, I will be very, very grateful.

To re-cap for any member who has not seen any of my threads, my Great Grandfather (William) Arthur Seymour was born in 1864/5 in St. John's, Newfoundland. There is only mention of him in UK Census records from 1891 onwards. At what point he returned/ moved to West Bromwich in England I do not know. He died in Leeds Infirmary in 1916 as a result of war wounds and is buried in Hareshill Cemetery in the city. He served with the North Staffordshire Regiment, first having joined in February of 1915 until his death the following year.

His father was also called William and by profession he is listed as a soldier. (This is according to his son's wedding certificate)

Many thanks to all who to date have helped me with this incredibly elusive ancestor

After a relatively long break from my research and recent contact with GR members regarding my elusive ancestor (William) Arthur Seymour, I appear to be no where nearer locating his birth certificate or indeed any information about his early life.

I recently met another GR member who is related to (William) Arthur Seymour but they too have no further details other than some photographs of my Great Grandfather's children by his 2nd wife. They too understand he was born in Newfoundland around 1864 but like me cannot unearth anything at all about his father (also William) - The GR members Janey suggested have drawn a blank. I have just looked at one of their trees with reference to a Dionysius Seymour (who it was thought may have been Wm Arthur Seymour's grandfather) but neither they or I can draw any connection.

In conclusion I am back to where I was several months ago and with less time to devote to this project due to family matters. Any GR members not familiar with my particular search, please refer to my other threads and those of others. If you can help or make any suggestions, please do contact me.

Let me thank all those who to date have made tremendous efforts in helping me knock down this particularly stubborn brick wall.

Well, I dunno. For the price of Edwin's marriage certificate, you could rule him in or out as the brother of your William/Arthur, at the least.

If it transpired that he was the brother, as I'm quite sure he was, you would have the possibility of finding info about *his* birth etc., which would be the same, in terms of parents' names, e.g., as for William/Arthur.


Btw, no one knows what your "other threads" are; perhaps you could give the links to them here. If they're about this same person/family, then I'm afraid they'd be inappropriate duplications ...


Found it

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1229517

and yes, it was an inappropriate duplication. Fortunately, not much time seems to have been wasted there.

Once more Janey, many thanks for the advice. I will post my follow up as soon as time permits

Janey, I am about to order Edwin's marriage certificate but before doing so could you tell me why you feel so strongly that he is the brother of William/ Arthur Seymour as I have accessed the tree of one GR member who has him as an ancestor but it does not give any of his ancestors or shed any light on this possible connection. The tree owner in question has no more info than I do. The other GR member who lists Edwin has to date not responded to my request to view his tree. I naturally gave him some background details as to why this would be useful

He is a Seymour almost the same age as your Seymour, born in Newfoundland. There are no other records in England of any Seymour born in Newfoundland. The odds of some unrelated Mr Seymour having a son in Newfoundland within a year or two of your Seymour's birth, and that son subsequently living in England, seem rather slim.

He appears to be connected, in censuses (nephew), with the Seymour family that included a William Seymour of the previous generation, i.e. of an age to be the father of the two Seymours bornin Newfoundland, who does not appear in censuses after his youth, consistent with being in the military outside England.

Your Seymour's father was stated to be William.

But mainly: if you want to find things out, you have to investigate the available possibilities. This seems to be the available possibility.

As ever Janey, many thanks. For the record I wasn't doubting you, I suppose I have ended up down so many dead ends I just needed to be more certain than I have been. I will contact the GR member again and order the certificate and take things from there.

Ah, certainty. Don't we all wish! ;)

Come back and tell us what it says when it comes!

Janey,

I have now received Edwin Seymour's wedding certificate and indeed his father is also called William (as with William Arthur's father) As you have previously noted, the chances of 2 Seymours both being born in Newfoundland within 2 years of each other and sharing a father with the same forename seem more than co-incidence. The only nagging doubt I have is that on William Arthur's wedding certificate (his 2nd marriage) of 1904, his father's profession is listed as a soldier. On Edwin's marriage certificate (of 1892) his father is listed as a mariner (Edwin too was a mariner) Am I being too pessimistic? Could it simply be that William Seymour Snr changed from being a mariner and decided to join the army? Either way I am not certain where to go from here as the 2 GR members who have Edwin on their trees have not been able to shed any further light (in fact only 1 has to date replied) I will attempt to trace Edwin's wife's ancestors/ descendants to see if this leads me anywhere. Her I go again!

I'd bet it could have been the other way around -- William Sr was in the military and then stayed in Nfld and became a seafarer. Ordinarily that would mean fishing. It could be that he died fairly young and the sons weren't well acquainted with him.

It's not uncommon for grooms to just assign their own occupation to a father they didn't know or know well, or couldn't be bothered identifying properly.

(Or a father they invented, as in the case of my gr-grf. He was a cook when he married the second time under a fake surname, so he called his father a cook, even though he'd called his real father a gentleman the first time he married. His sister, who was using the same fake surname, named the same fake father when she married an idle rich guy, and she called the fake father a gentleman. Different noses for different faces. ;) )

I wonder whether there's any chance of finding either of the young Seymours travelling to England? Incoming passenger lists at Ancestry might turn something up. If one were really lucky, they travelled together.

Thanks Janey for the quick reply. Unfortunately I don't have access to Ancestry but I am currently trawling through a number of William Seymours in the GR records that have a connection with a mariner's occupation and also a geographical connection with Cornwall as Edwin's wife Mary Gilbert was born in Portreath as were a number of William Seymours. There is a Wm Seymour in the 1911 record, who at the the time of the Census, was aboard a ship called The Carsin, however it doesn't state where it was traveling to or from. It was based in Penzance docks. There a number of other William Seymours born between 1837-1838 whose birth origins are either Portreath or Illogan in Cornwall ( I am aware that Wm Seymour Snr was born c. 1840, so these dates seem to correlate) The only snag amongst all these is that if Wm & Edwin share the same father, then according to William Arthur's marriage cert of 1904 we know his father was dead by then. The 1911 Census lists a William Seymour (Senior?) as still living and he is noted as being a retired mariner; Edwin too was a mariner. Should the last 2 be related, Edwin & Wm Arthur cannot be brothers - This of course is fraught with inaccurately recorded listings an other pitfalls.

I will endeavour to sift through all the above and see what I can deduce from it. I think I need a large whisky!!

Who is Edwin connected with in the tree of the GR member who does have him?

i.e. are they descended from him? or did he just marry into a family of theirs?

I'm suspecting it's the latter and that's why they dont have any other interest in / information about him.

But if they do have a Seymour interest, I'm just wondering how he fits into their tree.

The only member in question has Edwin Seymour married to Mary Elizabeth Gilbert. There are no ancestors given for Edwin, only his descendants and those become the Streets as his daughter married into that particular family. I cannot see any direct connection with the tree owner. At some point of course there must be some very distant link but I cannot work out which one this is. By clicking on Edwin and the tree owner does not provide any details

And what was the story on the other person who has William 1863 Nfld? I'm probably repeating ourselves. ;)

Also, try just doing a tree search for Seymour born 1865 +/- 10 years in Canada. Rule out the ones born in Ontario, for example (not to mention Wisconsin, duh). Around the same time, there are

Mary 1864
Horatio 1866
Francis / Frank 1870 (a popular name in Nfld)
Josephine 1860

Now, one of those members has several of those names, so one might think that if there were Edwins or William Arthurs in their tree, they'd know, but not necessarily.

Sorry Janey for late response;had family matters to attend to. On break from work now for 10 days so will crack on with more research and your own recent suggestions

I am the Ancestry user metioned by JaneyCaruck.
"Dionysius rather than Deonysus
mixture of incorrect original and transcription error"
This is an amendment to the 1881 census for Dionysius Seymour c1803.
From 1851 census I have his son as William Job b 1841 Alverstoke. As I can find no futher records from William Job I have assumed that he is the William who died in 1860
District: Alverstoke
County: Hampshire
Volume: 2b
Page: 324
But I could be wrong!
I have found no William Arthur, Arthur or Edwin in the line from Dionysius and Charlotte Sandercomb